Plane Cents | Joe Penaz Three hours of rambling and gossip passed off as "Personal Safety Training" Waconia Minnesota

To whom it may concern:

 

My first experience with a carry permit class was in 2003 with a twin cities based course (not Plane Cents). The course content was competent and to a substantial degree a communication of case history and life experiences of the two trainers.

 

As I see it, the purpose of carry permit training is to provide instruction on how not to misuse a permit to carry and establish realistic expectations in the misfortune of having to use deadly force to stop a violent crime and/or save your or another life.

 

My next experience with a carry permit class was five years later with Joe Penaz and Plane Cents at the recommendation of a friend. I found Joes training entertaining as well as very informative. Joe’s life experience was broader and more impactful than my previous training.

 

If a dissatisfied attendee of Joe’s training wanted a typical monotone boring academic experience he/she would be greatly disappointed. If an attendee went in to the experience with an open mind and wanted training that would best prepare a carry permit holder for the real world, he/she like myself, would be completely satisfied.

 

It is now 2013 and I need to again complete the carry permit training. I have no hesitation in again signing up for Joe’s class. Plane Cents is complete training at a great price!

I recently took a class of Joe's at his house in Waconia. I was intrigued because my renewal was only going to cost me $55, awesome! Once the class started, we were treated to a 45 minute rant on the Second Amendment. While I agree with 100% of what Joe said here, I don't think we needed to waste 45 minutes on Second Amendment rights and trashing of Liberals. We came here for a class on carrying a firearm in Minnesota not a lecture on our rights.

It might be easiest to list my observations from the class.

Things done right:
1. Defining when it is right to use your permit and how to deal with it
2. Moral/Ethical talk was amazing and I think every instructor should include it
3. Reinforcing that we probably aren't the best shots and need to realize its not like in movies/tv

Things done wrong:
1. I feel the Second Amendment rights rant and other random rants took time that could be better spent actually explaining the letter of the law. It felt like we went through the actual laws in the last 15 minutes and that was rushed.
2. Supervision during the shooting portion. The last class I took safety was a huge deal and each shooter was observed safely handling their firearm. Joe just handed guns to us and said "Shoot the middle target, then went back to telling us how he put $1k worth of parts into a Glock to make it feel like his carry weapon but shoot .22LR" I really didn't feel this was a safe environment and shot my gun and got out. (Sorry, but my father is a firearms safety instructor and I think he would have found this supervision atrocious)

I think Joe could have a better class if he kept his rants minimal and taught more of the law. Better supervision during the shooting portion would be a plus as well. I really don't feel that the 2.5 hours we spent on the subject matter was enough. The first class I ever took 5 years ago was 6 hours long and had I not taken that one before this one I would not feel comfortable after this class. Because I force myself to read the laws every so often and had a quality class before this was enough of a refresher, but I would steer clear for people new to carry.

I have taken Joe's course and found it thorough, well presented and am about to take it again with my wife. There were about thirty people in the class when I took it and Joe answered every single question professionally and I was not presented with anything outside the context of the course. Explaining his personal experiences were germane to the material and insightful for practical application. I am a Minnesota State Certified Firearm Instructor and recommend this class. As a combat infantryman in Vietnam, I understand fire discipline and target identification. Joe's instruction is solid.

Mike MacDonald
St Louis Park

I will keep this simple and short.  Joseph Penaz was straight and to the point.  My wife and I both took the class.  We both obtained our carry permits and thought Joe was a great value.  He has his stories and he has his opinions.  I greed with some and not others but i WILL be coming back to him to renew my permit in 2014. 

As for the Excel energy center how in gods name would he know that...?  Call them and find out.  See if there are signs posted on the door.  It is not up to the instructor to know if every busness and venue does or does not allow you to carry.

i have a feeling i know who the complaint is from and I also think that this person is now licensed to traing for the permit.  He is trash talking his compatition, that is all.  By the way, when my wife took the class Joseph let her take it for free becasue she came with me.  Thanks Joe,

Hey listen here like Joe said you didn't have the gifts to leave your name so I feel your either a instructor that is very jealous of what Joe has made for him self. But I just complete his class and for one your a idiot he never tried pushing floor polish or any of the other stuff your little tiny d*ck a$$ said. So I feel you need to give him an apology or put up here what you said is a lie.

Yeah he did have a book for sale but from what I learned from the class was well enough for me. So that must mean your slow. bet you don't say anything more negative about him. And I hope the sheriff denied your permit you don't deserve it. Your a f-ing idiot.

I took the Plane Cents class in late September 2012 because it was the least expensive I could find. I recommend this class to anyone that wants to get the classroom training required to obtain his or her carry permit at a very reasonable price. Before I get into the substance of my review, Joe could not have been more complimentary to his wife, who was not there. My class also included no women. The only woman he talked about other than hypothetical situations was his wife, of whom he spoke highly. Although I recommend taking Joe Penaz's course, I do have some constructive criticism (I see he responded to some of the voluminous comments to this report, and he also asked us to let him know what he can do to improve his class) that also serves as fair warning to consumers:

1) As stated in a previous comment, Joe has a huge personality. If you are turned off by people with huge personalities, you should find someone else. It is my experience that most gun enthusiasts have huge personalities, so good luck;

2) After our range session, we got to the classroom and Joe informed us that we would be leaving by 6:30 p.m. We did not leave until 8:00 p.m. One reason is that Joe told a lot of stories, some that directly related to what he was talking about, and some that related to nothing relevant. Second, Joe took the time to answer all of each person's questions (including some of my own, which were partly responsible for our tardy departure). While I did not mind, I believe the great majority of people who are told they get to leave at a certain time, then actually leave 1 & 1/2 our later would be upset;

3) Joe, this is a direct suggestion for you: you should tell everyone in the class to write down their questions, especially questions that relate to your opinion on individual models of guns, holsters, ammunition, and technique, and tell them to ask you at the end of the class and after you have handed out the certificates. This way, everyone can get all their questions answered, and you can get people out by the time you say you will;

4) This is also for Joe, and also is a suggestion to improve his time management: It is clear you have taught this course a lot over the years. Your powerpoint is very detailed and informative (and he gives everyone a CD with useful information - including the powerpoint - to take home), and provides a good outline for the class. You should follow this powerpoint and, while I don't think you need a "script," I think knowing exactly what you're going to say for each slide will aid you in correctly predicting how long the class will take. As a professional, I strongly believe that when you tell someone something will happen by a certain time, it should happen by that time.

In summary, I highly recommend Joe's class. I don't think you'll get a better price and, as Joe said in class, keeping proficient and practicing with your firearm is your responsibility as a gun owner. If Joe is still teaching in five years, I will definitely be back.

I took the class on Sep 12th - 3pm

The class ended at 7:15pm and that included the shooting portion of the class.  Both were at the same location.  There were a total of 6 students in the class including myself.

We took 2 bathroom/smoke breaks during the class, each one was 5-10 minutes max.  Class started about 10 minutes late because we were waiting for a person that did not show up.

Joe does tell stories but they ALL have a point to them and all stories related directly to a situation or law that was in place.  I found Joe very likable, intelligent, informative and thought the class was well organized.

Joe will be the first to tell you, his class is shorter because he does not go into everything you can do, it goes into depth and focus's on things you can NOT do. I and other members had questions throughout the class and Joe took the time to address them.

As far as the original post.  Joe goes over firearms and holsters, he did recommend manufacturers.  He also went over the importance of having a gun safe in your house and said he was a distributor for a company. He spent 5 minutes showing us the safe and if anyone wanted to buy it, to see him after class.  That was it, it was never brought up again.

I would take the class again.  Joe trys to keep your attention by going into some stories and mixing humor into the class as well.  I have already recommended the class to a friend and will probably be having my wife take it as well.

For people here to attack him about cheating on his wife is the lowest of the low.  We also all know a real Doctor would never write a post like that.  Believe what you want.  I felt it was a great value for what I got out of it.

 

I took a MN conceal carry course with Joe Penaz on 5/19/2012.  I thought the class was quite good.  I went with my nextdoor neighbor.  We each agreed that there was enough good information in the class that our wives should go.  I got a lot of information I didn't expect to get.  I would not hesitate to take another class from Joe.  The class was held in his home.  He let us all in his home, taught us a lot of good information, made us some spectacular chili, and let us pet his dogs.  It was a great day.  Two days after the class, I submitted my paperwork to get my MN conceal carry permit.  I had the permit within a week. 

I will keep this short as I just want to give the facts...ok and a bit of my opinion.

The "shooting test"  was told to shoot five rounds center mast at 15 feet. There were two of us going at the same time. He was not paying close attention that I could tell as he was not even standing by me in my lane, he was by the other person going at the same time who was using his gun.

This "test" was taken prior to any classroom time.

I need to point out that nowhere in the regulations for testing does it specify how the shooting test should be done. He is doing the minimum LEGAL requirement. With that being said there was a guy at 15 feet hitting the head of the target

Joe said if you hit the target at all you pass. Scary. He fully admitted that people come to him when they cannot pass the shooting test from other testing sites.

I admit I was APPALLED at this test. My husband and I were seething when we left. I called one of the places he lists on his site for a reference and the said "I would recommend you go to someone else as Joe likes to talk and he talks a lot about things that are not relevant like his gun collection."

We paid already so we drove to the class.

Classroom

Was a long five hours of yes Joe talking about many things including his gun collection, his opinions on evolution and God, how he is a "bada**" yes his words, how much money he makes and all the homes he owns, his plane etc... BUT he also talked about a lot of very interesting and pertinent subject matter. As obnoxious as I frequently found this man I liked his class.

I would even recommend a friend. And he did not "duck" legal questions that he was qualified to answer (he's not a lawyer). Overall I think the guy did his job and I feel better prepared to carry. He actually made me think of things that I never would have had I not taken his class. I am glad I did. I can study (and should for that matter) anything I feel was left out. But I feel he covered most of what I need to know.

I took Joe's conceal and carry class, some time ago (2003). at that time there were fewer certified instructors in the twin cities area then today. I found him by searching the internet and called him to schedule the appropriate class for my needs (very nice offering). The class was small (4 people) taught in his basement but was a great environment to communicate as a group 1 on 1 for those that had specific questions about the responsibility of conceal and carry. Joe's class had formal handouts (that were certified) and spoke very well to the aspects of rights, laws, and moral/ethics surrounding the issue of conceal and carry. Joe is unique in the fact of his personal experiences in situations and I found that extremely relevant with regard to the course instruction.It's been my experience that joe is not only a fine teacher, but also a very educated citizen with regard to carrying a deadly weapon. I have referred Joe in the past and plan to do so in the future.

I took the Carry Permit class from Joe yesterday (Dec 28th, 2011) and was very pleased overall.  The class was very full and everyone I spoke with in attendance had similar thoughts on the class.

Joe does have a "big personality" and a wide range of interests and experience as others have said here, but he does draw from them to add examples to his class.  There were a few times where I thought to myself, "Do we really need to go deeper in to this side story?" but every time Joe would tie the story back in to the discussion at hand and I realized that it was a relevant example to the point he was making as part of the class. 

The key things I took away from attending the class:

1-    The financial, legal, and moral implications of carrying a firearm and (God forbid) using it in a self defence situation.  For example, what might it actually cost you if someone thought your poor concealment was a threat to themselves and thought you were brandishing a weapon?  Get ready for an arrest and being charged with things you never intended.  Although it may get tossed out with the help of an attorney, the legal costs and the steps involved are daunting.

2-    Ways to think about and evaluate your environment to avoid threats entirely and your escape should a threat situation escallate.  This was worth the price of the class by iteself.

3-    Methods of concealment and examples of what can happen if you don't conceal very well in view of the public.

4-    Pros and Cons of different carry weapons.

5-    Legal statues and places you can/cannot carry

The time spent on the shooting qualification was minimal but if you read what is actually required for qualification, it was more than adequate.  This class isn't meant to help you progress with your accuracy - you should already be a proficient shooter before you show up to a class like this.  Overall, I was pleased with the class.  As I look back on what I learned and my new respect for the decision to carrying a gun, it was well worth the price.  If you are looking for more detailed information on carry laws, consult a lawyer with your specific questions for qualified legal advice. If you are looking for more hands on shooting, invest in one-on-one training with a good instructor.

Overall, I thought this class was as advertised, engaging, and educational with a very healthy respect for the realities of carrying and using a firearm for self defence.  I would recommend the class to others and I look forward to attending another one of Joe's classes for my renewal.

I did not get the class I was expecting. I have never taken a course like this and was expecting to get lots of hands on training at the range. I did not. I now realize that the whole point of taking the class was to understand that if you carry, you are taking on a huge responsibility.

While I felt a little cheated on how much time we spent at the range, I realized that wasn't the point of the class. If you need to practice, do it on you own time. There were 19 students in our class, there simply wouldn't have been time for everyone to "practice" as it's not the reason anyone was there. I also witnessed Joe correct the grip on a couple of the students hold on their pistols, he was definately paying close attention to us.

What I did get was a very good price on a very informative and entertaining class. Yes, entertaining as in keeping everyone awake. He taught us how serious of a decision it is to carry a weapon, and threw in some relevant stories and situations we all may encounter in our lives and how we should legally and morally react to them. 

Joe said over and over that money is not the reason he is doing this, it is just a passion of his. I believe this. Considering how much time it would take him and his wife to organize the classes, have everything ready (forms and such), cook the sloppy joe meat for a day (better than my grandma's, don't tell her though), and then the time out of their day to have the class. I got a bargain. While he made it known through humor that he sells for Glock, I felt no pressure to puchase one. He made everyone aware that there are different gun safes available, but again no pressure to buy one from him.

Joe made several references to his wife, all were positive and I could tell that they are totally inseperable.

If you took Joe's class and realized that the responsibility of aquiring your conceal/carry permit is too much or not for you, then he did his job. If you took his course and were confused on any aspect of laws or morality, you were not listening. If you took his course and still aren't capable of shooting a 2 inch group at 25 feet, that's not what the class is about, go practice on your own.

Joe is a decent human being and I will be returning to renew in 5 years. I purchased a book from him which should be required reading for this class, so i spent a total of 94 bucks including everything but gas. I would have paid double. He's not in it for the money and I believe that has irritated some people on here.

Just my thoughts.

Scott

I attended a class taught by Joe on Saturday September 17th In Glencoe. Joe was professional and took his instucting very seriously. His teaching style was one of the reasons I enjoyed his class. Joe used humor and personal stories to get his points across. I sat and listened to Joe talk and not once found myself bored or falling asleep. His information is informative and his stories all relate to keeping a person carrying a gun safe.

Joe does offer products that he endorses but in no way did I feel pressured to purchase anything. There were several people in the class who did purchase gunsafes. I felt that he has years of experience with holsters, gunsafes and when he said he likes certian types it only make sense to have them on hand. People are going to want to buy what he will endorse. That is just common sense on his part.

As to his wife, she was there for the whole class and honestly you can tell that Joe loves his wife very much. She is used in many of his scenerios and at no time did he hit on anyone of the females in the class. I don't know why this was even brougth up by the previous author. to me, it actually throws there credibility out of the window. Without getting into why Utah is important, Joe explains why it is important and the fact that the other author did not pick that up makes me think, the author of the negative post most likely has never taken Joe's class at all.

I will tell everyone to take Joe's class and I plan to visit his site for other training oppurtunites also.  I had a great time and really enjoyed the class.

Thank You, 

S.E. Minnesota  

I have attended PC's Conceal and Carry class along with my friends yesterday (08/25/2011);

We were completely satisfied. Time spent in his class room was totally worth the money. 

All questions and issues were resolved. If you pay attention and use your brains, you should have no problems; Otherwise ... play Crysis 2; You have no business touching the real weapon;

He advertised a book which we ended up buying. As a matter of fact, Joe should think about making this purchase mandatory (at least electronic version of it) as it has a great compilation of facts and information on the matter;

Everything else really looks like an effort of his competitors. Whats the point of shooting 50 yards one handed? It is stupid (as well as 25). It is a defensive thing and it is not a shooting training class. Safety. This is all that matters. Short class? All important information is out on the table ... If you wanna talk - talk to your GF. 

Seriously ... the price he charges is adequate for the matter; Quick; Informative; 

Just in case: to people who carry much about grammar and spelling- I can write same text in 7 different languages. Don't bother comment on it. It has nothing to do with the real matter. Joe did a great job  

Thanks Joe, 

We are going to contact you about range practice soon;

Will recommend to friends of mine;

 I didn't want to respond to the report because I am in political office and don't want my name out there. Considering the things being said, I felt it prudent to add my experiences to the discussion. I received my renewal course from this company in 2008 and found the class to be acceptable. I few points I would like to make concerning the rip-off report, the issue of laser range keeps coming up. Let me clarify from my actual experience. In 2001 I took the FATS (firearms advanced training systems) training with a local police dept. 2003 I completed the plus P low light advanced training for my CCW, 2008 I renewed with Joe. For those that don't know allot about the laser ranges, a groups of counties and cities in Minnesota called Scale built a police and fire training facility in the old Jordan jail annex with funds from all the partnering counties and cities and state grant dollars in the millions. This facility was furnished with the fats laser system for training purposes. If this type of training system is good enough for current law enforcement and money from multiple agencies it cant be all bad and I have used it myself in a various level training exercise and found it outstanding. I understand the principal to live fire shooting in the state laws as it makes the student shoot actual rounds in front of an instructor so the instructor can gauge competence .

After seeing some of these comments I was a little worried this price was too good to be true. Now after attending a class here this past week I am glad I went especially for the price (I drove in from Saint Paul). I can see how some of the people on here are probably other instructors who love to charge 120+ for the same thing and had to come on here to scare people off. Dont mind or feed the trolls and if you want to save alot of money and get your permit I would recommend you see Joe.

 

I took Joe Penazs class on March 25, 2010, to renew my carry permit. I chose his class because it cost less and the Bloomington location was convenient.  The night before class I looked on line for an address and stumbled onto this link.  I wondered what I had gotten myself into?  If you are in a similar situation, maybe this post will help.

Heres the bottom line:  Joes class was a hell of a lot better than the $130 class I took 4 years ago.  It was more informative and definitely more interesting.

PROS

Heres what I liked about the Penaz class

1.     Credible experience.  Joe has trained many hours at Gunsite Academy and is a licensed fugitive apprehension agent (bounty hunter).  After 35 years in the corporate world, my BS detector is pretty good.  He may embellish a tad, but I found his stories to be relevant learning experiences.

2.     PowerPoint slides kept him on track.  He was interrupted and rambled a bit, but he finished on time (3 to 9 pm) and covered the necessary material.

3.     You handle a variety of unloaded handguns.  If you have questions about whether you want a new compact, sub-compact, 1911, or any of the Glock models, Joe passes them around.

4.     To my surprise, in addition to the required legal material, I actually learned a lot.  I will never go to Gunsite Academy or Thunder Ranch, but I do intend to sign up for a few private lessons from Penaz.  And Ive started carrying a muggers wallet when I go downtown.

CONS

1.     Joe has a big personality and tells a lot of stories.  If you have problems with people like that, you should probably take another class.

2.     If you are offended by foul language, attend a class with a woman in it.  He cleans it up if women are present.  Otherwise, he talks like most of the cops I know. 

To summarize, I would definitely recommend the Joe Penaz concealed carry class to anyone who asked me.   After attending his class, my conclusion is that Joe is taking flak from other instructors upset with his pricing policy.   Go, learn and enjoy.

First a little background on me so you know my intentions going into the class.

I had been thinking about taking the CCW class for about a year. My co-worker was taking the class today and asked me if I wanted to go along. Like most people, I wanted to take the class to get the certificate as required for the permit, not receive weapons training. I did not know what to expect since I hadn't spoken to anyone about what actually goes into a training course and hadn't fully committed to pursuing my CCW permit.

Next, I'll go over the structure of the class.

The class started shortly after 3pm. Joe waited about 10 minutes for a couple of stragglers who had signed up for the class but were late getting to the range. We each went one at a time into the gun range and shot 5 shots at 15 feet and 5 shots at 21 feet. After each person shot individually, we drove to the classroom about 10 minutes up the road.

While Joe was getting setup he showed a couple of clips that demonstrated professionals using firearms incorrectly to get people's attention and I'm assuming to get people to realize the seriousness of handling a firearm and that even professionals can hurt or kill someone or themselves when not following proper training rules.

Joe went over many situations and discussed a person's liability in each scenario. It was very eye-opening for me personally and many others who openly vocalized the same.

We took a break from 5 until 5:10. The session resumed and Joe finished his presentation at about 9:45PM. Overall, the lecture part of the class was definitely over 5 hours not counting breaks and not counting the actual shooting at the range or driving to the class.

Third my impressions

I left class with a very clear understanding of what the law states about carrying a firearm. I know how the law in Minnesota will examine a shooting. He made it clear when I should run, hide or god forbid, fire the weapon. To me, this is the number one point of the class and it was embedded in my brain very clearly. Yes, Joe tells a lot of stories, but it doesn't obscure the important lessons that the class is intended by law to teach. There were a lot of laughs, but when you left you knew how serious the subject was that you just sat through and knew exactly where the law stands and how you should act in accordance.

I personally do not care about different industry credentials, what the people at Burnsville Range think or really what any other instructors think. Is Joe a little different? He's a lot different. Does Joe make sure you have the crap scared out of you sufficiently to really make you think about what you are getting yourself into? Yes and he makes sure you are paying attention to it by not holding back personally and not being so professorial or technical that people quit listening to him.

So now that I have the certificate, I may or may not apply for my permit. Joe has given me a lot to think about. In my opinion that is the point of the class; make people aware of the major, life-altering change they will undergo if the decide to carry and make certain they are aware of how the law will look at any action taken with a firearm.

Was that 5 hours of awareness worth $78.50. Hell yes.

By the way, Joe did explain the relevance of Utah very clearly. He also explained that while places like Xcel center will ban guns and wand you and take your weapon, it is really up to the promoter of the event to make the call. However, in general, even though legally you can carry with a permit, Xcel Center will still take your weapon regardless of the legality of the action. In other words, you aren't carrying into the Xcel Center.

Active Observer, stated that he has gone to the Xcel Energy Center numerous times and wanted to known if they could CCW into the arena?

I have been there numerous times also and each and every time, they have done a body pat or have used the metal detector..

If you even have a pocket knife, you will have to give it to security or return it to your vehicle...

Furthermore, do you think really readers believe that he was trying to sell you other products and would tell strangers like you, that he was having affairs!

Oh, and if you did take his course, why not use your name? What are you afraid of?

I find your entire post to be questionable... 

There Joey goes again. Maybe someday he'll take one of the suggestions to fix the problems with his "training" AFTER some news crew films him in secret!!!

If you folks would wise up and get rid of the "right" of these nutty people packing their loaded concealed handguns everywhere you wouldn't have any of these problems!!!

If you folks would wise up and get rid of the "right" of these nutty people packing their loaded concealed handguns everywhere you wouldn't have any of these problems!!!

If you folks would wise up and get rid of the "right" of these nutty people packing their loaded concealed handguns everywhere you wouldn't have any of these problems!!!

If you folks would wise up and get rid of the "right" of these nutty people packing their loaded concealed handguns everywhere you wouldn't have any of these problems!!!

I took Joe's class a few weeks ago. It wasn't that bad. You get what you pay for, and I didn't pay much, and didn't get much, but I didn't need much, and I just wanted to get my renewal over with, and I already know everything there is to know about guns anyway.

I took Joe's class a few weeks ago. It wasn't that bad. You get what you pay for, and I didn't pay much, and didn't get much, but I didn't need much, and I just wanted to get my renewal over with, and I already know everything there is to know about guns anyway.

I took Joe's class a few weeks ago. It wasn't that bad. You get what you pay for, and I didn't pay much, and didn't get much, but I didn't need much, and I just wanted to get my renewal over with, and I already know everything there is to know about guns anyway.

I took Joe's class a few weeks ago. It wasn't that bad. You get what you pay for, and I didn't pay much, and didn't get much, but I didn't need much, and I just wanted to get my renewal over with, and I already know everything there is to know about guns anyway.

I took this class today. I thought it was a good class and a great value for the money.

It is not a short class. I got there at 9 and didn't leave till 5. That's 8 hours. I stayed for a few optional shooting exercises afterward but the main portion wasn't over till 3. That's still 6 hours. Plenty of time to cover all the legal implications of drawing or using your weapon in a variety of situations, which was the main focus of the training, as it should be for a carry class.

He doesn't try to sell anything. Certainly not weird non-gun related things reported by the original complainant. He offers some gun-related stuff for sale (like a couple gun books and ammo incase you want to use one of his guns and don't have any) but the prices are very fair and he does not try to sell them.

The folks complaining here seem to fit in these categories:

1) A competitor that has never taken the class and has an interest in trashing Joe.
2) An admitted anti-2A guy who has never taken the class
3) A guy impersonating a doctor (real doctors know better than to attempt diagnoses on people they haven't ever seen in a clinical setting)
4) The original complainant - who may have actually taken the class but sure sounds like a stoner with ADD. If he had paid any attention at all, he'd know why Utah was covered. I (and most other people probably) knew before registering for the class. If it is still a mystery to the guy there is something seriously wrong there.

Ignore the complaints. This is a perfectly good class which exceeded my expectations. It would be worth twice the price (which is what most instructors charge). I picked it mainly because it was close, but it would be worth driving for.

Joe's classroom time was MUCH longer than the VA course. @ 9-3 pm, b
2 breaks were not enough IMHO as my buttocks were numb from the cold chair...

But the shooting part was much shorter, and slightly less distance. To be fair it was a "WARM" day of 34 F in Minnesota for the winter. So you can't stay out very long an any case. ( it was much colder the week before).

One interesting difference bet. VA and MN is my instructor ( former cop) in ol Virginny told us to keep shooting the attacker, whereas Mr. Penaz expressed concern for all humanity.( welcome to the commonwealth of VA :) )

I will NOT get into personal styles or egos. Each individual must choose what kind of instructor he wants. I don't give 2 rat's Azzes for bluster...but it a SELLING POINT, and pure capitalism.

Practice on your own time.

Just get your permit and CARRY.

I took Joe's class last February with my stepmother, father and brother. We are all educated, experienced gun owners. I was referred to Joe by a friend that gave a very favorable report, as so many of us have been referred; and in turn referred others. This is the real deal that makes some other instructor jealous, appararently. My brother is the owner of gunthings.com and is one of the most knowledgeable persons on firearms on the planet, as well as a master of "long range work." My stepmother is a PHD professor from St. Claud and long-time gun owner. My father, a retired award-winning salesman for Motorola. We know behavior and good people when we see them. We were all very impressed with Joe's class. When one is cooped up for that period of time, fine examples to illustrate points and stories, examples are critically important. Comprehension and retention are greatly enhanced this way and Joe presented extremely effectively.
He is truly performing an outstanding service to us all. He shows us many firearms and I bet other instructors do not have anywhere near the hands-on that Joes class does. He is descriptive in the proper stance, and all grip methods; in stark contrast to that "cross thumb hold" that some buffoon writer performed. He showed us many pistols and rifles and listed recommended pistols as well as having us handle each one, hold them, inspect them as long as we wished.
The real issue here, the source of the jealousy, is the infectious passion Joe has for the second ammendment and firearms. He had us in his home. How dare you make fun of a man for having us in his home and treating us more like a friend than a visiting stranger? He is only guilty of "lowering his shields" with us and sharing his collection so we can be better informed. I hereby state that the "other guy" has an inferiority complex and lacks what Joe has in abundance. That thing, Sir, is charisma.
I still have a warm feeling thinking back to the wonderful time our family had together at Joe's place along with several other folks, despite the blizzard. During break, he served us a nice sloppy joe lunch in his kitchen area and we all had a nice chat. The food was very tasty, hit the spot. We were a happy, well informed group; comfortable together, despite most of us not knowing one another. I cannot believe some anonymous coward would attempt to nibble away at such a decent person. That guy's desperation, grasping at straws shows in the way they attack his font size! Lack of spell check! Making fun of his site and go for so many completely erroneous details that have nothing to do with carry class. You need a case of Joe Friday's, "Just the facts, Mam."
I started out with anger, but now have only pity for that guy trying to put down Joe, the greatest instructor that is just trying to save folks some money during these tough economic times. Congrats to the guy that said the instructors should help one another. Good idea, with Obama in office. Joe is a great instructor and that is the truth and I am very for real. If it was allowed her I would happily list my contacts, but at least you can see my name.

I took Joe's course as an out-of-state student on a trip to Minneapolis last year. I showed up at the gun shop at the designated time, but unfortunately Joe was not there. I called him and he explained that there were too few students to make a class that day so he had canceled it, and I guess wires got crossed and I didn't get the memo. He apologized, and we hung up. After thinking it over I decided to give him another call to see if there was any way this could be done since I had no other opportunity to take the course and I wanted to be able to carry in MN during a camping trip that summer. Joe relented and invited me out to his home.

He gave a complete presentation, and I don't know what other necessary substantive material another course could offer that anyone with a reasonable mind would need. Of course I do have a Ph.D., and did have some experience with handguns prior to the course, so it was all pretty straightforward to me...pretty much common sense.

Now I know that those who offer a longer, meatier course will consider that last comment to reflect MY ignorance, but I am confident enough in my own intelligence and capabilities to be able to ignore those comments. Truth be told, most people probably need a lot more specific information because they really don't think about things correctly, and for those people a more rigorous course would be highly advisable. The person who wanted to know if he could carry to concerts...well that's just ignorant. You can't even carry a knife to concerts I've been to, much less a gun.

For myself, I found Joe to be an honest, considerate, and generous guy, and he stayed on course with the presentation, no breaks, we did the firing test, and he got me through the certification as he had contracted. Sure he has stories. So what. As a teacher I tell a lot of irrelevant stories when I'm trying to keep my students awake over a long haul. That's not relevant to the discussion at all, that's a matter of personal presentation style.

I don't carry all the time, never wanted to, and never will. But I do desire to carry under certain conditions, and I pay attention to the rules for where I wish to carry such as parks, wilderness areas, etc., so I am in compliance. It all seems pretty straight forward to me, guys. If it took a genius, most of us wouldn't be carrying!

Joe's course was what I needed, and he went out of his way for me. Thanks, Joe.

I took Joe's course as an out-of-state student on a trip to Minneapolis last year. I showed up at the gun shop at the designated time, but unfortunately Joe was not there. I called him and he explained that there were too few students to make a class that day so he had canceled it, and I guess wires got crossed and I didn't get the memo. He apologized, and we hung up. After thinking it over I decided to give him another call to see if there was any way this could be done since I had no other opportunity to take the course and I wanted to be able to carry in MN during a camping trip that summer. Joe relented and invited me out to his home.

He gave a complete presentation, and I don't know what other necessary substantive material another course could offer that anyone with a reasonable mind would need. Of course I do have a Ph.D., and did have some experience with handguns prior to the course, so it was all pretty straightforward to me...pretty much common sense.

Now I know that those who offer a longer, meatier course will consider that last comment to reflect MY ignorance, but I am confident enough in my own intelligence and capabilities to be able to ignore those comments. Truth be told, most people probably need a lot more specific information because they really don't think about things correctly, and for those people a more rigorous course would be highly advisable. The person who wanted to know if he could carry to concerts...well that's just ignorant. You can't even carry a knife to concerts I've been to, much less a gun.

For myself, I found Joe to be an honest, considerate, and generous guy, and he stayed on course with the presentation, no breaks, we did the firing test, and he got me through the certification as he had contracted. Sure he has stories. So what. As a teacher I tell a lot of irrelevant stories when I'm trying to keep my students awake over a long haul. That's not relevant to the discussion at all, that's a matter of personal presentation style.

I don't carry all the time, never wanted to, and never will. But I do desire to carry under certain conditions, and I pay attention to the rules for where I wish to carry such as parks, wilderness areas, etc., so I am in compliance. It all seems pretty straight forward to me, guys. If it took a genius, most of us wouldn't be carrying!

Joe's course was what I needed, and he went out of his way for me. Thanks, Joe.

I took Joe's course as an out-of-state student on a trip to Minneapolis last year. I showed up at the gun shop at the designated time, but unfortunately Joe was not there. I called him and he explained that there were too few students to make a class that day so he had canceled it, and I guess wires got crossed and I didn't get the memo. He apologized, and we hung up. After thinking it over I decided to give him another call to see if there was any way this could be done since I had no other opportunity to take the course and I wanted to be able to carry in MN during a camping trip that summer. Joe relented and invited me out to his home.

He gave a complete presentation, and I don't know what other necessary substantive material another course could offer that anyone with a reasonable mind would need. Of course I do have a Ph.D., and did have some experience with handguns prior to the course, so it was all pretty straightforward to me...pretty much common sense.

Now I know that those who offer a longer, meatier course will consider that last comment to reflect MY ignorance, but I am confident enough in my own intelligence and capabilities to be able to ignore those comments. Truth be told, most people probably need a lot more specific information because they really don't think about things correctly, and for those people a more rigorous course would be highly advisable. The person who wanted to know if he could carry to concerts...well that's just ignorant. You can't even carry a knife to concerts I've been to, much less a gun.

For myself, I found Joe to be an honest, considerate, and generous guy, and he stayed on course with the presentation, no breaks, we did the firing test, and he got me through the certification as he had contracted. Sure he has stories. So what. As a teacher I tell a lot of irrelevant stories when I'm trying to keep my students awake over a long haul. That's not relevant to the discussion at all, that's a matter of personal presentation style.

I don't carry all the time, never wanted to, and never will. But I do desire to carry under certain conditions, and I pay attention to the rules for where I wish to carry such as parks, wilderness areas, etc., so I am in compliance. It all seems pretty straight forward to me, guys. If it took a genius, most of us wouldn't be carrying!

Joe's course was what I needed, and he went out of his way for me. Thanks, Joe.

I took Joe's course as an out-of-state student on a trip to Minneapolis last year. I showed up at the gun shop at the designated time, but unfortunately Joe was not there. I called him and he explained that there were too few students to make a class that day so he had canceled it, and I guess wires got crossed and I didn't get the memo. He apologized, and we hung up. After thinking it over I decided to give him another call to see if there was any way this could be done since I had no other opportunity to take the course and I wanted to be able to carry in MN during a camping trip that summer. Joe relented and invited me out to his home.

He gave a complete presentation, and I don't know what other necessary substantive material another course could offer that anyone with a reasonable mind would need. Of course I do have a Ph.D., and did have some experience with handguns prior to the course, so it was all pretty straightforward to me...pretty much common sense.

Now I know that those who offer a longer, meatier course will consider that last comment to reflect MY ignorance, but I am confident enough in my own intelligence and capabilities to be able to ignore those comments. Truth be told, most people probably need a lot more specific information because they really don't think about things correctly, and for those people a more rigorous course would be highly advisable. The person who wanted to know if he could carry to concerts...well that's just ignorant. You can't even carry a knife to concerts I've been to, much less a gun.

For myself, I found Joe to be an honest, considerate, and generous guy, and he stayed on course with the presentation, no breaks, we did the firing test, and he got me through the certification as he had contracted. Sure he has stories. So what. As a teacher I tell a lot of irrelevant stories when I'm trying to keep my students awake over a long haul. That's not relevant to the discussion at all, that's a matter of personal presentation style.

I don't carry all the time, never wanted to, and never will. But I do desire to carry under certain conditions, and I pay attention to the rules for where I wish to carry such as parks, wilderness areas, etc., so I am in compliance. It all seems pretty straight forward to me, guys. If it took a genius, most of us wouldn't be carrying!

Joe's course was what I needed, and he went out of his way for me. Thanks, Joe.

My name is Mike. I live in Chanhassen and took Joe's class on 3-8-08. I've filtered through all the BS in this report and have just a couple things to say.

In the upper echelon of society, the person (or persons) doing the "bad-mouthing" are frowned upon much, much more than the person being bad-mouthed. Not once did I see Mr. Penaz make a negative or slanderous comment about any of his attackers. As far as I'm concerned, Joe handled this report the same way he handles his carry class. Very factual and professional. I'll refer Joe to anyone seeking a permit to carry AND I will be sure to take his renewal class in 5 years.

I attended this class today, and this is an unsolicited comment about the class. Joe is not aware that I am posting this comment. I am signing my real name, unlike some others.

I caried a pistol/revolver every day while performing over eight years of Military and Law Enforcement duties. I understand the use of deadly force very well, as I lived it daily in a professional capacity.

Joe followed a Powerpoint Presentation and he stayed right on the course materials, like a presentation should.

His real life stories and examples were used to illustrate points about the law. Some people may be jealous about Joe's accomplishments and passion. He is extremely outgoing and has a sincere desire to help people through sharing his own life's experiences.

I have attended many classes regarding this subject matter. Some instructors present with different points, but I believe that this class covered the required material according to state law.

As to the comment "I don't know what Utah has to do with it." I guess this guy probably doesn't understand alot of things, if this got by him! Most of these classes advertise the Utah permits available in case anyone wants to also apply for a non-resident license in Utah.

I did not know Joe before this class, and it was recommend by Gunstop (Local Gunshop). I think you would be foolish to believe all of the negative posts. I will refer as many people to his class as possible, he is informative and reasonably priced.

I was at the May 3rd class in Glencoe. I was referred to this class from some one who had taken the class before me and was happy with it. We had 40 plus students in this class. The class was as professional as any class I have ever taken. Joe was clear as to what we can and cannot do. I talked to many of the people there during the breaks and every one seemed to be very complimentary of the class. At the end many people lined up to say thanks and tell Joe what a great class he did. I had already been through the course 5 years ago with another instructor and this class was by far better and more clear. I read all that was said in this thread and I just don't get what you are talking about. Read what the other students have said also. How can you judge his class and be so destructive verbally to him when you have never even been to one of his classes. Joe if you were so bad you would not have over 40 people in this class people just would not recommend you. Hang on it has to be tough having some one post all these lies about you. I would recommend this class to every one. Observer you have an agenda and it is obvious or you have serious problems and need to see a doctor, maybe the imaginary one in the thread.

I was at the May 3rd class in Glencoe. I was referred to this class from some one who had taken the class before me and was happy with it. We had 40 plus students in this class. The class was as professional as any class I have ever taken. Joe was clear as to what we can and cannot do. I talked to many of the people there during the breaks and every one seemed to be very complimentary of the class. At the end many people lined up to say thanks and tell Joe what a great class he did. I had already been through the course 5 years ago with another instructor and this class was by far better and more clear. I read all that was said in this thread and I just don't get what you are talking about. Read what the other students have said also. How can you judge his class and be so destructive verbally to him when you have never even been to one of his classes. Joe if you were so bad you would not have over 40 people in this class people just would not recommend you. Hang on it has to be tough having some one post all these lies about you. I would recommend this class to every one. Observer you have an agenda and it is obvious or you have serious problems and need to see a doctor, maybe the imaginary one in the thread.

Joe's class was great. There were eleven in our group and ALL thought he was professional and informative. I will recommend him to others.

Vance

I have a simple solution to resolve this. Tell the truth, Joe Penaz. Answer the questions. Don't pretend to be "Mike Dokken" or "Former Student." Just tell the truth!

Joe,
I know you are reading this report regardless of the fact that you removed the link from your website.

You have had a long time to mill over this report and you still have not answered the list of questions I posted. Please step up to the plate and clarify what you teach.

You're asking me to walk on a very slippery slope here. I read the assessment up there that is allegedly written by a doctor.

I am not a doctor. I don't even know you guys. But, I am a social work student with a counseling psychology minor. The key word here is STUDENT. Anyway, after reading the comments made by the "doctor", I made a face very similar to this: o.0

As some people have said already, it appears to be an absolute fabrication. It is poorly-written, rambling, redundant, and appears to be utter nonsense.

I honestly don't want to get embroiled in this whole mess that's going on here. And I don't want it to seem like I'm taking sides. I'm an observer from the outside, and I have nothing to base my opinions on except for what is written here in this thread.

But what did you think about the doctor's report? Not everybody who posts here is a MD.

But what did you think about the doctor's report? Not everybody who posts here is a MD.

But what did you think about the doctor's report? Not everybody who posts here is a MD.

But what did you think about the doctor's report? Not everybody who posts here is a MD.

I've just finished reading this entire debacle. I don't know any of you, and I have never taken this class. In fact, this is just an observation from someone outside the fray. If you want to be taken seriously, it would be a good idea to not come off as a ranting lunatic. Caps-lock, overuse of exclamation points, cursing, snide speech, and condescending nicknames all make the posters look foolish and immature. It will turn people off your points of view very quickly.

Just sayin'

"Mike Dokken" was supposed to take the cheap class and file a report here?



Where is it?



How did things go at Burnsville Pistol Range or did Joey do his "qualification" with his laser toy?

Yesterday you said that the doctor didn't exist and today you admit that he does but say I'm calling him names.



Joey, you keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper.



Are any of these "testimonials" somebody who isn't named Penaz?

The Phony doctor said he saw it because he said he was the one who did it. You can't keep these stories you are fabricating straight! Who would pay for a class sit through it and deliberately shoot bad and say he was going to do it all over again and pay again for training before he applies for the renewal. You just called him a doob. As he should be! If he did this then it was obvious he was going to have a slanted opinion of Joe from the start so this has even less credibility. He threw every ones targets away when I was there, if he was there he would have seen that too. If he was worried about it how people shot he would take them with him. You guys are so childish this is grade school tactics. Grow up!

When you walk into the range watch real careful about how everybody tenses up!!



I bet Penaz comes up with some excuse not to go to the range this Saturday so that you won't see that! (Unless you are one of the phony names Penaz is posting under. I bet you are.)



Joey jhust answer the questions that have been raised? Stop talking about how your wife is a great cook and how you go on and on without breaks, and answer the questions!



If the Doctor hadn't taken your class how would he know that when one of your doobs shoots badly you crumple the target to hide how low your standards are!!

I will report back on this forum next week my findings of Joe's class. I do not know Joe, but I do know that several of your comments are way out of line.



A Medical Doctor is strictly bound by a code that doesn't allow him/her to diagnose people and publish their findings for public display. Give us all a break with your nonsense!



Don't you have anything better to do than continue to denounce Joe Penaz. Degrading others to raise your self esteem is what weak minded people do. Find a hobby, or volunteer your time at the Veterans Hospital.



Mike

How interesting that the latest "unsolicited comment of support" for Penaz claims to know who and who has NEVER taken a class from Penaz! And then makes the same threats of legal consequences that Penaz has been making!



Are all of his "supporters" Penaz or just most of them?



Joey, answer the questions instead of coming up with more phoney endorsements!

That guy is not a Doctor and was never at any class of Joes. I was weeks ago and so was my buddy last week. He called me when he saw this guy ripping Joe. We were at two separate classes. I remember thinking when is Joe going to take a break? We finally did at lunch. Joe if I was to complain it would be that add some breaks. My buddy said he took 1 break last weekend.



Now when you read this online personality profile you should stop right here. Stop listening to anything these guys are saying and realize Joe is being assassinated by these guys. No real doctor would ever risk doing what this guy did. The legal risks of this type of behavior are huge not to mention he could loose his license. Also look at the words and phony doctor language this guy is using.

You are the sick people and I mean real sick. Get a life



Every one should look real close at what is going on here.

That guy is not a Doctor and was never at any class of Joes. I was weeks ago and so was my buddy last week. He called me when he saw this guy ripping Joe. We were at two separate classes. I remember thinking when is Joe going to take a break? We finally did at lunch. Joe if I was to complain it would be that add some breaks. My buddy said he took 1 break last weekend.



Now when you read this online personality profile you should stop right here. Stop listening to anything these guys are saying and realize Joe is being assassinated by these guys. No real doctor would ever risk doing what this guy did. The legal risks of this type of behavior are huge not to mention he could loose his license. Also look at the words and phony doctor language this guy is using.

You are the sick people and I mean real sick. Get a life



Every one should look real close at what is going on here.

That guy is not a Doctor and was never at any class of Joes. I was weeks ago and so was my buddy last week. He called me when he saw this guy ripping Joe. We were at two separate classes. I remember thinking when is Joe going to take a break? We finally did at lunch. Joe if I was to complain it would be that add some breaks. My buddy said he took 1 break last weekend.



Now when you read this online personality profile you should stop right here. Stop listening to anything these guys are saying and realize Joe is being assassinated by these guys. No real doctor would ever risk doing what this guy did. The legal risks of this type of behavior are huge not to mention he could loose his license. Also look at the words and phony doctor language this guy is using.

You are the sick people and I mean real sick. Get a life



Every one should look real close at what is going on here.

Something must have been true about the statements above because Joe pulled the link off of his websites to this RipOffReport. If he really stood behind his reputation and his supportive students he would not have done this...



I am sure he won't come on the report to explain this will he?

Unlike most people who have posted here at ripoff.com, I have some experience at being the target of unfounded accusations. I am a mental health professional in Minnesota and have once been (unsuccessfully) sued by a former patient who made utterly untrue allegations. Despite those allegations being false and defamatory, that incident was bruising to myself and my family. I was also once called as a witness in a complaint against a colleague of mine against whom allegations had been made that I had thought were utterly untrue but turned out to be entirely true. That was a distressing time for him and his family, but that colleague did to bring that upon himself.



What I am trying to say is that accusations can be either true or false.



I am also a firearms hobbyist and carry permit holder. I have been a carry permit holder since shortly after the law changed in 2003 and was among the first to get a new permit under the new system, as I took my original training during that summer.



Two months ago I was pointed at Mr. Penaz's website by a colleague who asked me if this was the "conceal and carry" instructor I had taken my training from. He was not. My colleague pronounced himself reassured to have learned that. When I first examined that website, I thought it was a weak attempt at humor. I was able to verify that Mr. Penaz is, in fact, a licensed instructor, and further Internet search brought me to this site.



While I had planned on taking my renewal instruction from the same, well-respected, instructor who trained me during the time period of the summer of 2003, I thought it might be interesting to take Mr. Penaz's class, in view of the fact that I was comfortable that my re-training was a mere formality, unlike the CE that I take in my professional life.



I have one more bit of preface before I go on to the substance of my review. I do not now have and have never had a professional relationship with Mr. Penaz or any member of his family. I am also more than aware that I simply do not have enough contact with Mr. Penaz to perform a diagnosis, and do not represent my conclusions here as having diagnostic merit.



Let me begin with the factual matters. The class actually began shortly after 9:30 a.m. on a weekend morning. It finally terminated for the drive to the range for the shooting qualification 4 1/2 hours later. It was punctuated by several long breaks. I estimate that they totaled fifty minutes or a little more. He completed his presentation at 1:15, and engaged in a "discussion" until we departed for the range forty-five minutes later. He encouraged us to "take your time driving, there is no rush."



It was a three and a half hour class, at most.



The basic material presented was clearly and demonstrably a subset of the material presented in the course that I had taken five years before from a well-respected instructor. To put none too fine a point on it, there were important legal and gun-handling issues that were given short shrift. With that in mind, and upon consultation with the text of the law and the book that I received in my initial class, I believe that Mr. Penaz's class may have met the minimal requirements as specified in Minnesota statute 624.714. It would be a matter of judgment.



The range qualification took place at the range facility that has been mentioned here before. All of the trainees fired 10 shots each. I deliberately used a cross-thumb grip on my pistol, and Mr. Penaz made no attempt to correct that. I deliberately scattered my ten rounds across the target. Immediately upon taking my target down, Mr. Penaz immediately crumpled it and tossed it behind him after looking over his shoulder at the glass window into the lobby. He then signed my training certificate and congratulated me on a "good job."



Matters of impression. Mr. Penaz's presentation was punctuated with self-aggrandizing stories about his many claimed accomplishments. This was markedly similar to the verbal diarrhea splattered across his website. He was constantly and continually requesting confirmation from the people taking the class as to how wonderful the class was. It was not. When he stopped reading from the overhead presentation, he seemed unable to bring himself back to the subject matter without a reminder from the woman who he had introduced as his wife, who appeared to be repeatedly attempting to keep him on task. She was often successful but not always. Mr. Penaz did display a grandiose sense of self-importance, seemed preoccupied with fantasies of his own success in many fields, and was almost incessantly talking about how other instructors were jealous of him. I do not know if he honestly believes that he is special and unique, or if he simply feels that it is useful to portray himself as such. I would guess that both are the case.



As I have previously stated, I do not have a professional relationship with Mr. Penaz, the approximately 5 hours that I spent in his presence might be, in a clinical setting, sufficient to diagnose Narcissistic Personality Disorder if that were present. That would, however, required the give-and-take of a therapeutic/diagnostic environment, rather than the environment of his class, which may have exaggerated some manifest flaws in his personality of a subclinical nature. Accordingly, while I observed all of the characteristics of NPD, which I have listed below, it would be unethical and inappropriate for me to suggest that, upon proper diagnosis, another clinician would find that that disorder is present in Mr. Penaz.



With the controversy about Mr. Penaz's credentials here, I do not intend to present his certificate for my renewal and will be taking my renewal training from another instructor before submitting my paperwork later this year.



I will not be sending friends or family to take Mr. Penaz's course, and would advise the certification agency to carefully examine him.



To put none too fine a point on it: there is something wrong with this guy. You don't have to be a doctor to see that.



From the DSM-IV: Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder:



1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance

2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique

4. requires excessive admiration

5. has a sense of entitlement

6. is interpersonally exploitative

7. lacks empathy

8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Since I have no firsthand knowledge of Mr. Penaz' classes, I will refrain from any comments about him, other than expressing some concern that he even considered using anything other than real guns and real bullets for his shooting exercise.



However, as a Firearms Instructor for more than 30 years, and one of the people who invested 9 years of my life to get the Minnesota Carry Law passed, I WILL advise all who read this thread to note that "Eric [redacted]" uses the very same language, WORD FOR WORD, as the anti-gun hysterics (i.e. "loaded, concealed handguns in public"). He's doubtless a mole, so be forewarned...

Earlier today, I sent the email to Mr. Penaz appended to the bottom of this response. I have since received two emails from Mr. Penaz, neither of which has persuaded me that my misgivings about the "conceal and carry" handgun law were misplaced.



I think this matter must be investigated by the Minnesota legislature, to find the facts of the matter, and rewrite the "conceal and carry" handgun law so that no future ill-trained "instructors" will engage in the practices that Mr. Penaz has been accused of nor those which he has accused his competitors of.



My email to Mr. Penaz follows: I ask that he post his disturbing responses here.



As somebody who has been watching and been disturbed by the discussion of your "conceal and carry" training at ripoff.com, I would like to ask you if the comments from "Joe Penaz" on that site are:



1. In fact your comments, and/or



2. Reflect your actual observations and beliefs.



I am not a supporter of the so-called "conceal and carry" law,



I know that any accusations floated about on the Internet must be treated with skepticism, but if the comments made either about or by you are accurate, this demonstrates that this risky law needs to be changed to require better supervision of "conceal and carry" instructors and police departments. The notion that anybody (whether a "conceal and carry" permit instructor's "student" or a police officer) could ever be "qualified" to carry a real handgun in public by showing an ability to use a training toy is very disturbing.



While you and your critics seem to disagree on much, both you and your critics have alleged that "conceal and carry" permit instructors (they say that you are included in this; you say that you aren't, but others have done so) have used these training toys to "qualify" people to carry a loaded, concealed, handgun in public.



I hope you will agree that this is a very disturbing allegation, and that if it is true, the law must immediately be changed to revoke the "conceal and carry" permits of any individuals who have so "qualified" and prevent this sort of recklessness from happening, ever, at any point in the future.



I am copying this e-mail, and will copy any response from you, to my representative and senator in the Minnesota Legislature, in the hope that this matter can be thoroughly and promptly investigated, and resolved before the end of this legislative session.



I will also advise my legislators if I receive no response from you within the next 24 hours.



Thank you in advance for your prompt and candid response.



Eric [last name redacted]

Looks like Penaz just signed up another one! What a joke!



Joey, you haven't addressed ANY of the issues that have been raised. You just keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper. Claiming that anybody who takes your class and then notices how lame it is really one of your "competitors"? Claiming that anybody who notices how everybody at Burnsville Pistol tenses up the moment you and your doobs walk in and don't relax until your gone are your "competitors"? Claiming an "association" with two organizations that don't list you and then changing the subject when somebody brings it up!?!



What?!?



Talk about cheap shots at other instructors! Who are you claiming was the instructor who said of your doobs "You actually let those people' in your home?" Are you trying to accuse every instructor or are you going to be man enough to step up and tell everybody who the hell your accusing?



Take a carry class in a bowling ball salesman's basement?!?! That's real perfessional, Joey. Why not move up in the world and teach your classes at a Wendy's!



What other MN instructors were using a laser toy INSTEAD of doing a real shooting qualification? You say there were others. Who are these cheapie sneaks? List the names of instructors who violate the rules by having their students shooting toys instead of real guns!



Or did you just make that up like the "CTU" training you do? Do you have the man from UNCLE on your "staff" or is it just Jack Bower?



If the US government is hiring Joe Penaz to provide antiterrorist training to protect us then we better all start buying burkas!



I can see why the sheriffs send deputies in to keep an eye on you! I don't blame them at all!!



Get a clue and ask around. The BCA knows that you're a cheapie artist but there's nothing they can do.

No one is ripping your students man!? As I said before, they are victims of your fantasy island brain.



"...I have addressed the points you brought up and exposed them for what they are. ..."??? No you haven't!



Just a few issues you did not address:

1- Do you have students shoot 10 round on the range or is it 30 rounds as you claim on your website(s)?

2- Who's course did you base your 2004 course on? AACFI by any chance... So was it really YOUR course?

3- The 'overhead' of AACFI. How much were they charging that it was sooo much that it affected your course fee?

4- MADFI audited your class in 2006, which was done BEFORE you left MADFI in December 2006, correct yes or no? So why leave MADFI over a laser? You could still teach your own class since you had your own certification. There was no need to leave MADFI over this was there??

5- Address the fact that you only teach the minimum requirements of the law yet claim to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?



No one is calling the deputy a liar, I am questioning why a deputy is taking your class when they don't have to? They can carry "off duty", no problem.



"...What about retired police officers or departments that do not encourage off-duty carry under their licenses, positions like jailers and prison guards? ...". Sorry Joey but again you don't know what you are talking about. LEO and retired LEO's don't get a MN carry permit, they carry under the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 (18 U.S. Code 926B and 926C). They need to fill out a separate form which the instructor needs to sign, not the certificate issues after a carry course.

Also your course does NOT meet the requirements of this act. Shall I tell the class why? Because you only have your students shoot 10 rounds and even if you claim they shoot the 30 rounds I found on your website (which I know you don't because I have seen you on the range...), your course of fire still does not meet the MN POST boards requirements because (retired) LEOs need to shoot a 50 round course of fire. AND they need to shoot a specific course of fire at various distances and here is the kicker, it needs to be timed! And which instructor does NOT time their students on the range..... anyone..... anyone..... anyone... correct: Joe Penaz!



"...What if an officer wants be able to have a glass of wine when he is out to dinner? ...", ehm guns and alcohol don't mix! I don't care what the MN statute allows for blood alcohol content, you should NEVER drink at ALL when carrying a gun. period. It is frightening to hear a firearms instructor even suggest doing this.



"...That's why they get a permit. They carry under it as a citizen when allowed...." Trust me, if an off duty LEO gets into a gun fight, he will be judged as an LEO NOT as a citizen.



"you" provide anti-terror training?! There goes the GWOT! I would love to see your client list for that class, oh wait that is probably a secret right?



So far you have not been able to come up with one fact to refute what I have said.



It is OK for you to have classes but stop acting like you are so great. At least fix your website's font size, it looks sooo unprofessional.



I wish your students good luck, they will need it because your attitude might rub off on them and cause a great harm on the street.

YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES! STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT JOE IS DOING IN HIS CLASSES. IF YOU WISH TO INITIATE A COMPLAINT WITH THE BCA, THEN DO IT!



I think you are cowards for not using your real names, or worse yet remaining anonymous. I think you are jealous and are spewing hated for your own inadequacies.



I do not know Joe, but have been given his name by some very well respected people in the business. I was signing up on his website for a class and I saw these posts listed on this Rip-0ff site. I feel very confident in taking his class to renew my permit.



Joe please do not feel compelled to respond to their comments, they obviously are trying to assassinate your character. PEOPLE SEE RIGHT THROUGH THEIR NON-SENSE!

YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES! STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT JOE IS DOING IN HIS CLASSES. IF YOU WISH TO INITIATE A COMPLAINT WITH THE BCA, THEN DO IT!



I think you are cowards for not using your real names, or worse yet remaining anonymous. I think you are jealous and are spewing hated for your own inadequacies.



I do not know Joe, but have been given his name by some very well respected people in the business. I was signing up on his website for a class and I saw these posts listed on this Rip-0ff site. I feel very confident in taking his class to renew my permit.



Joe please do not feel compelled to respond to their comments, they obviously are trying to assassinate your character. PEOPLE SEE RIGHT THROUGH THEIR NON-SENSE!

YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES! STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT JOE IS DOING IN HIS CLASSES. IF YOU WISH TO INITIATE A COMPLAINT WITH THE BCA, THEN DO IT!



I think you are cowards for not using your real names, or worse yet remaining anonymous. I think you are jealous and are spewing hated for your own inadequacies.



I do not know Joe, but have been given his name by some very well respected people in the business. I was signing up on his website for a class and I saw these posts listed on this Rip-0ff site. I feel very confident in taking his class to renew my permit.



Joe please do not feel compelled to respond to their comments, they obviously are trying to assassinate your character. PEOPLE SEE RIGHT THROUGH THEIR NON-SENSE!

YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES! STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT JOE IS DOING IN HIS CLASSES. IF YOU WISH TO INITIATE A COMPLAINT WITH THE BCA, THEN DO IT!



I think you are cowards for not using your real names, or worse yet remaining anonymous. I think you are jealous and are spewing hated for your own inadequacies.



I do not know Joe, but have been given his name by some very well respected people in the business. I was signing up on his website for a class and I saw these posts listed on this Rip-0ff site. I feel very confident in taking his class to renew my permit.



Joe please do not feel compelled to respond to their comments, they obviously are trying to assassinate your character. PEOPLE SEE RIGHT THROUGH THEIR NON-SENSE!

You say I'm digging myself a deeper hole. Do you think I would keep bringing this stuff up if it was hurting me? No, because the truth does not hurt me. All you guys have done is lie.



My class schedule has always said 9:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. on Saturdays and 2:30 or 3:00 to 9:30 p.m. weekdays. I would think an Observer' such as yourself would notice what time I come into the range on Saturdays its hard to miss us, we fill the place up.



I have done CCW classes for many Law Enforcement professionals. Again, are you calling the deputy a liar? What about retired police officers or departments that do not encourage off-duty carry under their licenses, positions like jailers and prison guards? What if an officer wants be able to have a glass of wine when he is out to dinner? That's why they get a permit. They carry under it as a citizen when allowed.



As for the laser system, Utah and some other states do not even require a shooting exercise at all. I guess you are smarter than them also! Maybe you should clean house there too.



I never anywhere stated that I personally did counter terrorist training, only that my company did it. Send me a letter from your law enforcement agency and I will have the trained qualified retired special forces person I am working with show up to quote you for his team's services. My DDP site is not for the public as it states. I do not sell to the public, only law enforcement. If you called and asked about it, I would have told you that, or you could have just read it for yourself.



As for carrying before the bill, I did. I owned several businesses throughout the years, and, as the owner of a business, could legally carry to and from my place of business. If you were ever in my class, you would know that.



Lets say I am gone in a month because you guys ruined my business (I hope not as I have two of you for sure in actual provable slander now), who's next? The next guy who is competing with you? Are you going to take him out with slander too? This is the cheapest way to try to hurt someone. I have enough of an ego that I don't need to slander anyone. I just say, Ask your potential instructor what qualifies him' and compare their offering to mine. Numerous CCW training websites say they are the ones to come to. They feel they are the best choice. I am well qualified and I provide a high quality course, but I don't say I'm the best. You will not find one person who will testify I have ever said that I am the best instructor out there since sliced bread. Those were your words.



Prospective students read this and then call me to sign up for a class. Your slander is not working. People can see this for what it is, slander, over and over again. I may not chime in again and let you re-spin this some more, as I am sure you will. I have addressed the points you brought up and exposed them for what they are. I also came out and explained myself when you asked me to and unlike you they know who I am. It's a pity you don't have the guts to say who you are so that people could compare your course to mine, but that would take courage, which obviously you do not have or you would not hide behind the Observer.' If you don't have courses of your own, you have no business even doing this because you do not even walk the walk. And if you had your own course and were proud of it, you would say who it is so everyone can compare our courses and see that your product is clearly superior to mine.



Why don't you just take me on in the business world? I will repeat this one last time. Offer a better product at a better value, and you should have no problem running me out of business. Then just move on to the next guy competing with you. If I am so bad, it shouldn't take long.

You admit that you were going to take 100 untrained shooters and put them through your "course" and have them "qualify" with your "Beamhit" toy and give them carry permits and let them walk around packing whatever they wanted to without ever knowing if ANY of them had so much as shot a real gun before?



Whoever you have writing your response for you is exposing you as the reckless "marketer" that you are!

Stop your crying about comments being slanderous would you! You have folks here asking critical questions of what you are doing. Don't forget that YOU are the one who provided the link to this rip off report and now you are bothered by the fact people are chiming in on it?



Who is saying your students are being degraded?! Dude, they are just victims of your ego.



E.g. 10 rounds on the range, do you have students shoot 10 round on the range or is it 30 rounds as you claim on your website(s)?



Who's course did you base your 2004 course on? AACFI by any chance... So was it really YOUR course?



The 3 hours course info was taken off your site. It was mentioned once and then repeated by others. Did you by any chance adjust your website a bit?



The "overhead" of AACFI. How much were they charging that it was sooo much that it affected your course fee?



MADFI audited your class in 2006, which was done BEFORE you left MADFI in December 2006, correct yes or no? So why leave MADFI over a laser? You could still teach your own class since you had your own certification. There was no need to leave MADFI over this was there??



Deputy Sheriffs have attended your class?! Why would they do that, they don't need a CCW permit to carry their guns anywhere whether they are on or off duty. Now if they call themselves "deputy" but are POST certified it is a completely different issue. Are they POST certified yes or no? Again you appear to ride on their alledged LEO coat tails to boost your reputation.



The BCA does not monitor classes and instructor, they just certified your course as OK. That is it.



I am not cleaning up. You lead me to this report and I am just commenting on your cheesy website and claims to fame. The moment I read your website my BS detector went crazy. Any self respecting firearms instructor would not start advertising for oil and floor sealants.



Address the fact that you only teach the minimum requirements of the law yet claim to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?



If you would not dis other instructors on your website claiming how great you are because you can demonstrate full auto weapons etc. etc. you might not be so disrespected. Soooo, let us see who started with slanderous claims....





Finally, at your other website diversifieddefenseprocurement, you actually teach, and I qoute "...Anti Terrorist Guns and Training (MN) CTU training!..." Bwuahahahaha. I am sorry but what the heck makes suited for anti terrorist training?!

Please tell me what it is that you train in that class, it sounds so thrilling.

HELLO TO ALL PROSPECTIVE STUDENTS OF JOEY: this is the point where you need to question if Joe's ego has overstepped his capabilities as a whole.





Joe, I really really feel for you. You need a reality check man.

Ok, so now things have degraded to ripping my students. They have been called untrained stumbling shooters, poor doobs, stupid, bozos, etc. You guys even ripped a Deputy calling him a liar do you see how low you are getting? Lets see if we can figure out who the liar really is.



You keep saying my course is a quickie 3-hour class, even after several students (who, by the way have actually taken my course) have contradicted your claim. My course runs from 9:00 a.m. until 2:30 p.m., which is over five hours -- I may not be the best at spelling, but at least I can do simple math.



AACFI is a great organization and Joe Olson carries a lot of baggage for all of us and we should be grateful to him for that. I wrote my own course in 2004 and got it approved by the sheriffs (yes I have the documents) so I could teach my course. I did not need AACFI and the overhead that came with it, and passed the savings on to my students. I was not kicked out of AACFI, and that, my friend, is slander.



I was already teaching my own course when MADFI was formed. I became a MADFI instructor to support what I feel is one of the greatest organizations out there. I left MADFI when I was going to do a class of over 100 students and planned to use a laser system, which other Conceal Carry instructors were using, and similar to what many police departments use to train and qualify. Andrew would not approve it, so I chose to separate from MADFI, however I maintain a great relationship with Andrew.



On December 4, 2006, seven weeks before my large class, the BCA notified instructors that qualification with less-than-actual-shooting substitutes in lieu of actual firearms was prohibited. I ended up never using the laser system, instead I brought 100 of my students to the Burnsville Pistol Range over the next three weeks to qualify.



MADFI did audit my class in 2006 and it was rated high. What organization reviews your course Observer? Deputy sheriffs from several counties have attended my class, and did not feel I was dangerous or the content in my class was lacking. So, once again, this is provable slander. Slander is serious stuff, especially when you do it on the internet in front of everyone. You can't just say later you didn't do it.



My experiences outside the gun world enable me to share different perspectives and add interest to my course that others can't offer. Having other talents makes a teacher more interesting and better able to communicate in a way that reaches people more effectively.



I am still offering what I have always offered, a good class at a fair price. Stop saying you are trying to somehow clean things up. That's not your job, it's the BCA's job to monitor CCW trainers. I was certified to teach Conceal Carry in 2003, just a couple months after the bill was passed. No one has been teaching Conceal Carry classes much longer than me. This doesn't make me an expert just based on time, but if I was as bad as you guys say I am, why do I have the following I have. Products don't lie. I don't have a bad product I have a product that students want, and they in turn refer me to their friends and family.



These slanderous attacks do not seem to be hurting my business. While this report was filed to hurt and discredit me through slanderous lies, the fact is that I am busier than ever. Obviously consumers are smart enough to figure out what's going on here, and the truth is prevailing.

Joey, talk to whoever you have write your responses for you and tell him to stick to the subject! Whatever your writer says some instructor said about YOUR students doesn't have anything to do with anybody else's students just the bozos who you have "marketed" to.



Why do you brag about being trained by Joe Olson of AACFI and being a member of MADFI but don't mention being kicked out of AACFI and MADFI? Was it because they were jealous that you were selling so many bowling balls and conducting "CTU" training like you think your something out of "24"?



The list of MADFI instructors is at http://madfi.org/sheriff.asp . If you are "associated with" MADFI like you say on your website why is YOUR name not there? Is it because they don't want have anything to do with you?



If you can't stick to the truth at least have who ever writes your responses for you get his story straight!



Even the poor doobs who you get to write comments for you embarrass you. "I commented to the State of Utah on their evaluation form that my only complaint was that the class was maybe too short."



Maybe too stupid and too filled with bowling balls and floor coverings to?

Joey, booby... you don't get it do you. The other instructors are upset with you because your product is not up to par, nothing to do with "competition".



Explain in detail why you ride on the tail coats of other organizations such as AACFI and MADFI but you do not teach their courses? Why don't you teach their stuff or are you teaching their stuff but calling it your own?



Explain how is it that you claim to teach just the minimum requirements of the BCA and yet claim to be the best thing since sliced bread?



Address the issues I raised before and explain yourself:

'...* I hold a class 01, 02, SOT, 07 Federal Firearms License (Machine guns) as a dealer and gun manufacturer developing enhancments and parts for light machine guns....' Does not have much to do with teaching CCW does it?

'...pilot and aircraft owner....Class 'A' commercial drivers license...Dive coordinator scuba divers license, professional scuba diver...ABC bowling instructor...Teach guitar, piano, voice and music theory....' whoop-dee-doo, I am really really thrilled about all of these qualifications. Just explain to me how that helps you be a firearms instructor again? It sounds more like you know a little about a lot but aren't focused enough to be an expert at anything.



'...* I can sell and demo guns other instructors cannot even own...'. I can sell ladies intimates but that does not make me a good lover does it?!

4- "...WHY should you take our MN Permit to Carry course vs. others being offered? Our instructors were trained by Joe Olson, the attorney who wrote the law..." Correct, Mr. Olson wrote a lot of the law and is part of AACFI and Joe Penaz isn't teaching thru AACFI anymore. I wonder why? Also note that AACFI is the course which requires a time shoot at the range and Joe does not like that though.

5- "...Most importantly of all, I carry every day. This is important! Many instructors out there do not; many others have carried only since the bill passed..." Huh?! And what the heck are you trying to say here. Joey, did you carry your gun BEFORE the carry bill was passed? JOEY, WHEN DID YOU START TEACHING THESE CLASSES? WHEN DID YOU START CARRYING?

6- "...Plane Cents no longer offers AACFI permit to carry courses; however, Joe Penaz was AACFI trained. We have written our own BCA-approved course which goes beyond. ..." So Joey was trained by AACFI and has now written his own course which goes beyond? Beyond what? How can you go beyond AACFI if you teach only 3 hours? It can't be beyond the BCA requirements because you state yourself that just teach you what you need to fulfill the Minnesota requirements to apply for the permit. This means you only teach the minimum and DO NOT go beyond.



Address the questions we have asked of you Joey. Explain yourself.



If you were a little bit more of a quiet professional and not act like God's greatest gift to firearms training you would get more respect.



It is also easy for students who have never taken a training class in their lives to think Planecents is doing a good job. Now instructors on the other hand know what it takes and what is valuable training and what is not. Your product is less than acceptable.

You need to take a good close look at what is being said about me and how all of it has been called a lie by students who have actually taken my course. Then look at how rare it is to have customers go to bat for anyone being attacked on Ripp-off.com. If you read the comments you will see that no one says they were ripped off by me, not even the guy who started this. What you will see is a lot of cheap shots at me and my wife -- it doesn't get any lower than that. If you take the time to read the negative comments in this report, I'm sure you will come to the same conclusion I have, it's instructors who are attacking me, not students who have actually taken my course. So ask yourself, why would these instructors be attacking me? It's clear they are having a hard time competing with me.



A frequent comment is you get what you pay for, trying to convince you that my course is inferior to others because I charge less. All instructors are expected to follow the BCA rules and teach a complete class following the course as approved by the BCA. I provide a high quality course filled with content you won't find anywhere else and I present the material in a dynamic and understandable manner. The classroom portion of my course takes about 5 hours (longer depending on questions and discussion) plus the shooting time at the range. This is not a quickie course, as students who have actually taken my course have stated in their comments.



As some of my critics have suggested, I agree that you should do your homework; talk to gun shops and your friends for references; come to Burnsville Pistol Range on a Saturday afternoon, talk to my students, observe my class at the range. Invariably you will see my students waiting around until the shoot is finished to shake my hand and thank me for the great class and for welcoming them into my home. I actually had an instructor say to me You actually let those people' in your home? What does that say about that instructor's opinion of his students?



The bottom line is my classes are full and I am keeping very busy! The majority of my business is referrals from former students and gun shops. I am busy because I offer a product that consumers are choosing over others being offered. That's what the competition does not like and why they are attacking me. You will never hear my wife or I tearing down other instructors, we just keep working at making our courses better.



While this report was filed to hurt and discredit me through slanderous lies, the fact is that I am busier than ever. Obviously consumers are smart enough to figure out what's going on here, and the truth is prevailing.

Instead of having Joey beg for more "unsolicited" support from his "students" and explain how he can say, "I do more corporate private at your location classes than any other instructor call me for my list." (Is he for real? Who does he think he's fooling about how all the other instructors are going to share their private class lists with him? Does he give ALL of his "students'" private information this kind of care?) and then explain how him having lost two engines in planes and playing piano and selling bowling balls and coating garage floors and taking Motrin qualifies him to be a carry permit instructor. Hey Joey? Did you ever FIND those two engines?? Were they covered in floor coatings or under the bowling balls?



Why not just ask an expert?



He says he was "trained" by Joe Olson. He says that "No other course gives the same in-depth view into the law." he says. I bet he won't ask Joe Olson to sit in on his class and give an HONEST opinion about how "in-depth" he is or whether he is up to his hipboots in bullshit. He says he "we are associated with and was certified by MADFI in 2005". I bet he won't ask MADFI to sit in on his class and give an HONEST opinion about it. He mentions Joel Rosenburg on his website and says he teaches the same thing as Rosenburg's "Twin Cities Carry" class. I bet he won't ask Rosenburg to sit in on his class and give an HONEST opinion on it.



He loses engines, sells floor coatings and teaches "Anti Terrorist Guns and Training (MN) CTU training!"



Either Joey is full of it or Jack Bower should eat his heart out.



Bet he doesn't ask an expert!

Chase, your response if full of it. Why would you take a renewal CCW course if you are a Deputy or are you actually non-LEO?



Who the hell are you to tell the rest of us "KNOCK IT OFF"?! Do we need to stick together or do we need to make sure CCW carriers are properly trained.

If we need to stick together



Let's let Joey come out and explain himself?



Dave Dallin, please clarify your statements with facts please.

I normally don't like to get involved in stuff like this I hate political B.S. However, I really have to address some of the comments made here regarding this course.



The original author of the complaint states as part of the reason he considered the course a rip off' was that I'm really not sure what the Utah permit has to do with anything, we live in Minnesota Well sir, if you kept up on the laws and ever traveled anywhere, you'd understand. Do a little research and maybe you'll learn something.



Many of the antagonists here state that there is better training else where. YES, THERE IS. You can go anywhere in the state, I promise you, there is better training SOMEWHERE. The Plane Cents advertises itself as the bare minimum required by law. I have been through many of the other courses civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military. This time around, to renew my permit, I didn't feel a desire to pay $125 or more to take a course I have already taken.



If a person requires more training than the minimum, then they need to be responsible enough to take it!



I took my first CCW permit course in 1999. I'm a Veteran (1988-1994) with two Combat MOS's (2 years as an infantryman and 4 as an M-1 tanker). I worked as a Personal Protection Agent from 1999 to 2003. I'm now a deputy in a local county jail where I work as a Field Training Officer and a course on Tactical Mindset and Officer Safety. The other people that were in the class with me included many Veterans, a group of competitive handgun shooters, and a few others in various (non-licensed) law enforcement positions.



I'm stating the above because Mr. David Dallin referred to us as a gaggle of untrained shooters because we didn't take *his* course. This is a phenomenon I like to call the Dumb jock syndrome - you know, anyone that doesn't do exactly as he does isn't as special as he is.



Mr. Dallin, what gives you the right to judge me, who I am, and what my skills are?



The Burnsville range didn't seem to have ANY problem with us untrained shooters paying a full range fee to pop off 10 rounds , then leaving. (I personally would liked to have stayed a bit longer and shot) But, they are there a business taking our money and getting us through as quickly as possible to make room for the next group.



I didn't see any unsafe actions by the students. The last course I took in 2003 with a different instructor also held their shoot at the Burnsville range. They looked annoyed then because the instructor didn't notify them ahead of time. Oh, and nobody, except Joe, watched us untrained shooters like a hawk.



The course was much longer than 3 hours (hell, I wish it was only 3 hours). Nobody offered to sell me a bowling ball, or whatever else is stated here. His wife wasn't in the class but he never once said anything negative about her or claimed to have cheated on her.



I don't feel I was ripped off at all, I paid what he quoted, and received the class that was specified.



THAT being said IN ORDER TO PRESERVE OUR FREEDOMS WE NEED TO STICK TOGETHER. This stupid in-fighting is how we loose our rights to begin with. We need to stop bickering if you're slandering other instructors and CCW permit holders so you can make a buck, knock it off!



If we don't stick together as a unified voice, we will again loose our freedoms to those liberals who can put aside their differences, work together, (and maybe plant a few TROLLS in our mist to cause dissention!) to weaken our cause. KNOCK IT OFF!

It's stupid to expect that a quickie cheap class from a bowling ball / amsoil / holster / whatever salesman who can't afford a spellchecker is going to be anything to brag about.

Spend any Saturday at Burnsville Pistol Range and watch what happens when Penaz and his untrained shooters stagger in. It's a joke.



Ask around if you want to know the score. Ask a bunch of instructors "If you had a family member or friend who wanted to get a conceal/carry permit and they couldn't go to you, who would you send them to?" and see which names come up. You'll hear the same names over and over again, and it WON'T be Joe Penaz.

Spend any Saturday at Burnsville Pistol Range and watch what happens when Penaz and his untrained shooters stagger in. It's a joke.



Ask around if you want to know the score. Ask a bunch of instructors "If you had a family member or friend who wanted to get a conceal/carry permit and they couldn't go to you, who would you send them to?" and see which names come up. You'll hear the same names over and over again, and it WON'T be Joe Penaz.

Spend any Saturday at Burnsville Pistol Range and watch what happens when Penaz and his untrained shooters stagger in. It's a joke.



Ask around if you want to know the score. Ask a bunch of instructors "If you had a family member or friend who wanted to get a conceal/carry permit and they couldn't go to you, who would you send them to?" and see which names come up. You'll hear the same names over and over again, and it WON'T be Joe Penaz.

Spend any Saturday at Burnsville Pistol Range and watch what happens when Penaz and his untrained shooters stagger in. It's a joke.



Ask around if you want to know the score. Ask a bunch of instructors "If you had a family member or friend who wanted to get a conceal/carry permit and they couldn't go to you, who would you send them to?" and see which names come up. You'll hear the same names over and over again, and it WON'T be Joe Penaz.

If you want to know whose who and what's what in CCW training in the metro area, just go to Burnsville Pistol Range on a couple of Saturday afternoons and watch and listen. (Almost all of the good metro instructors and some others do their shooting qualifications there and most are on the weekends.) Watch which instructors the range owner watches like a hawk and who he doesn't worry about. Don't ask him. Unless he knows you, he won't get involved in straightening you out.



You can see who get treated like respectable colleages and who gets tolerated.



You can figure out who are the real deals and who the cheapie artists are, pretty quick.

Joe Penaz teaches a good course period. I have taken the course and he covers all that is necessary in a 5-6 hour class. He does not make you shoot for hours at the range if you can shoot a good group into a body size target. His course was approved by the BCA and is followed page by page with a power point projector so as not to miss any material.



I took a course last time around from a prominent instructor like him and the courses were very close in content. You have more lies about him. His wife is not an attorney, get the facts straight. Call the gun shops listed ask them about Joe I did. No one offers more for less that's why you (an instructor) are taking shots at him. Worry about your own course not his. Why would anyone except another instructor care about what he does? He puts a link to this report at the top of his web pages do you think he really is worried about what you say about him? You can trash him all you want his students are who send more students to him and I know why he is a good guy.



I listened to him closely last week he has done things other guys just think about doing. Its not bragging if it's the truth, and he can show you pictures and proof of anything he did. He is a born teacher and has a way of really keeping your attention at his class. His experience with metallic silhouette and high power rifle shooting as well as building and modifying machineguns puts him in different category than some instructors. He does not tear down other instructors or their classes he leaves that to guys like you. He even said at the last class I will never say I am the best instructor or my course is the best, just that I have a product that people want and market it well. I would highly recommend Joe Penaz to any one who wants to get a good value in a course.



I am not just some idiot I am a successful business owner in my 50's if he had ripped me off I would not be sticking up for him. People like you Maple Wood Observer will always be trying to be something you can't because you waste time you could spend being better at what you do, trying to hurt people like Joe who are already there.



Joe there are a lot of people who are sticking up for you I am proud to be one of them.

Joe Penaz teaches a good course period. I have taken the course and he covers all that is necessary in a 5-6 hour class. He does not make you shoot for hours at the range if you can shoot a good group into a body size target. His course was approved by the BCA and is followed page by page with a power point projector so as not to miss any material.



I took a course last time around from a prominent instructor like him and the courses were very close in content. You have more lies about him. His wife is not an attorney, get the facts straight. Call the gun shops listed ask them about Joe I did. No one offers more for less that's why you (an instructor) are taking shots at him. Worry about your own course not his. Why would anyone except another instructor care about what he does? He puts a link to this report at the top of his web pages do you think he really is worried about what you say about him? You can trash him all you want his students are who send more students to him and I know why he is a good guy.



I listened to him closely last week he has done things other guys just think about doing. Its not bragging if it's the truth, and he can show you pictures and proof of anything he did. He is a born teacher and has a way of really keeping your attention at his class. His experience with metallic silhouette and high power rifle shooting as well as building and modifying machineguns puts him in different category than some instructors. He does not tear down other instructors or their classes he leaves that to guys like you. He even said at the last class I will never say I am the best instructor or my course is the best, just that I have a product that people want and market it well. I would highly recommend Joe Penaz to any one who wants to get a good value in a course.



I am not just some idiot I am a successful business owner in my 50's if he had ripped me off I would not be sticking up for him. People like you Maple Wood Observer will always be trying to be something you can't because you waste time you could spend being better at what you do, trying to hurt people like Joe who are already there.



Joe there are a lot of people who are sticking up for you I am proud to be one of them.

Penaz was not in the business before the carry law handed him a bonanza! That's why he takes short cuts and is a laughingstock in every gun shop in the the area!! Just hang around any of them and ask, OFF THE RECORD! He always brags that his wife is a lawyer and will sue ANYBODY who says anything bad about him!



If you want GREAT training, go to some endeavor like DEFENSIVE EDGE that has been around for years, and not a Jonny Come Latelly like Joe Penaz!!!

5 years ago I took another instructors class. I came to Joe after reading the comments that were made by many happy students and also talked to one of the gun shops he uses for a reference. The Larry at the Gun stop in Minnetonka highly recommended Joe and said they have for 5 years. They said no one has ever said anything bad about Joe just good. I also talked to two different instructors about their courses and when I asked them about Joe he is right the money issue did come up.



The last guy making slanderous comments in this report who said that Joe does a 3 hour class is most likely the same guy who wrote the first report that started this and if he came to the class he would realize he is wrong. Both times if he had been to the class he would see he is wrong. It states on the web site that the class starts at 9:00 and finishes around 2:30 or later and thats's what Joe told me when I called and we did not get out of the class until after 4pm that day and I wanted to stay at the range with Joe it was so much fun.



That's at least 5 hours not 3. This is where you should stop reading his report. His basement has a very professional look to it even has a ceiling mounted power point projector and brand new padded chairs to sit on. He supplies all the refreshments for free and his wife cooks a meal that was to die for. Every thing the observer as he calls him self said about Joe is wrong and a lie.



I would recommend him the way many have in this report to all who are looking for a class and a good understanding about CC. Keep up the good work Joe the truth always wins and the truth is I was very happy with my course from Plane Cents. Observer why don't you worry about your course I agree with others in this report that you are another instructor and this is just cheap!

If you are going to get your carry permit you had better think before you go with this Joe Penaz fellow. Sure he is cheap but you do get what you pay for.



First off, I have not yet taken his class but I am temped to do so just to see what his classroom portion is like. I have seen him on the range with his students and it's pathetic because is only requires 10, yes TEN, rounds total to qualify for your range portion of the course.



There is a reason why a 2 year college degree is less valuable than a 4 year degree and the same goes for the 3 hours CCW course and a 7 hour course.



So it's a 3 hours class and at $75 comes down to $25 per hour for Joey, where as other classes are $125 for 7 hours which is $18 per hour. In the end Joey here makes more an hour and teaches you less! The up side is that should you get into a shooting, you could try to sue Joe for providing inferior training. It might meet the state's minimum requirements but Joe is acting without morals here. Which reminds me, I wonder if Joe carries any liability insurance or will you own his house after suing him???



Let's break a couple of things down here that you should think about regarding statements on his website:

1- "...Why Choose Us? No one has both Utah and Minnesota for less than $75...."

Well, let's take a look at this statement of his website. Doesn't this frighten you a bit? If I were a surgeon and told you should pick me to do surgery on your brain because I was the cheapest, not because I was good, would you select me? Also 3 hours to teach all the relevant CCW laws for 2 different states? This does not pass the sniff test.

2- "...Ask yourself, would you spend your hard earned money to get training in golf from someone who is not a pro?...". Joe surely does not act like a pro, kind of amateur hour. He says he isn't in this business to make money. Well Joe, how about you do it for free then? Come on Joe, you are in it for the 2nd amendment aren't you?

I do the class portion at my house very professional indeed, I am impressed NOT.

3- "...* Over 90 hours of formal firearms instructor level classroom training from the likes of the NRA, AACFI, and MADFI..." wow.....NOT. When is the last time you received some new training? 90 hours isn't that much bud. Recent, realistic and relevant training, when is the last time Joey got any of that for himself to improve his skills?

"...* I hold a class 01, 02, SOT, 07 Federal Firearms License (Machine guns) as a dealer and gun manufacturer developing enhancments and parts for light machine guns...." Does not have much to do with teaching CCW does it?

"...pilot and aircraft owner....Class "A" commercial drivers license...Dive coordinator scuba divers license, professional scuba diver...ABC bowling instructor...Teach guitar, piano, voice and music theory...." whoop-dee-doo, I am really really thrilled about all of these qualifications. Just explain to me how that helps you be a firearms instructor again? It sounds more like you know a little about a lot but aren't focused enough to be an expert at anything.

"...* I can sell and demo guns other instructors cannot even own...". I can sell ladies intimates but that does not make me a good lover does it?!

4- WHY should you take our MN Permit to Carry course vs. others being offered? Our instructors were trained by Joe Olson, the attorney who wrote the law. Correct, Mr. Olson wrote a lot of the law and is part of AACFI and Joe Penaz isn't teaching thru AACFI anymore. I wonder why? Also note that AACFI is the course which requires a time shoot at the range and Joe does not like that though.

5- Most importantly of all, I carry every day. This is important! Many instructors out there do not; many others have carried only since the bill passed Huh?! And what the heck are you trying to say here. Joey, did you carry your gun BEFORE the carry bill was passed?

6- Plane Cents no longer offers AACFI permit to carry courses; however, Joe Penaz was AACFI trained. We have written our own BCA-approved course which goes beyond. So Joey was trained by AACFI and has now written his own course which goes beyond? Beyond what? How can you go beyond AACFI if you teach only 3 hours? It can't be beyond the BCA requirements because you state yourself that just teach you what you need to fulfill the Minnesota requirements to apply for the permit. This means you only teach the minimum and DO NOT go beyond.

I just love the way you keep saying you AACFI certified but no longer teach their classes. It's kinda sad how you need to use another organization to boost your own company.



Harley ads, Amsoil ads very professional and for crying out loud do something about that website(s) you have. There are 15 year olds who can make better website than that and make it more professional. Start teaching quality and not quantity.

I just wanted to add my comments regarding Joe's class. There were 7 of my family that participated in Joe's class. We drove from Northern MN to attend, the cost was one of the main reasons, but we had also heard good things regarding the class. I was not disappointed in his teachings. The class was very informative and definately covered the information that we were there to learn. He did make the class very interesting with his real life interjections. Putting a real life twist on this class instead of just the text book version lets the class come away with more and i believe remember more of what was discussed. There were 3 other women in this class besides myself and Joe made good recommendations on personal protection. I would and have told people that this class was worth taking.

Thank you to Joe and his family for providing a great class, a nice lunch and welcoming us, a bunch of strangers into your home. It is much appreciated.

I and four of my friends took Joes course recently based on couple of references from acquaintances. We all came out with much more than we expected. It was an Enjoyable and informative class in a very comfortable environment.



Joe did mention bowling; He did this in order to illustrate a great analogy of how bowling relates to marksmanship. It was an important analogy as he needed to stress how to practice and how important it is to be proficient. There was no sales pitch on bowling or any other product. Joe gave informative information on several of the products he uses and gave comparative and factual reasons why he chose them. It is part of the course and I am thankful for his input. It will probably save me a lot of trial and error and money.



Joe covered the legal aspects thoroughly. As far as where one can carry and where not Joe covered the basic law thoroughly. One should not expect anyone to be a walking library on the law. The individual is responsible to research specific locations.



I highly recommend Joes Plane Cents course and feel it was well worth my extra drive time and gas money.

I and four of my friends took Joes course recently based on couple of references from acquaintances. We all came out with much more than we expected. It was an Enjoyable and informative class in a very comfortable environment.



Joe did mention bowling; He did this in order to illustrate a great analogy of how bowling relates to marksmanship. It was an important analogy as he needed to stress how to practice and how important it is to be proficient. There was no sales pitch on bowling or any other product. Joe gave informative information on several of the products he uses and gave comparative and factual reasons why he chose them. It is part of the course and I am thankful for his input. It will probably save me a lot of trial and error and money.



Joe covered the legal aspects thoroughly. As far as where one can carry and where not Joe covered the basic law thoroughly. One should not expect anyone to be a walking library on the law. The individual is responsible to research specific locations.



I highly recommend Joes Plane Cents course and feel it was well worth my extra drive time and gas money.

I and four of my friends took Joes course recently based on couple of references from acquaintances. We all came out with much more than we expected. It was an Enjoyable and informative class in a very comfortable environment.



Joe did mention bowling; He did this in order to illustrate a great analogy of how bowling relates to marksmanship. It was an important analogy as he needed to stress how to practice and how important it is to be proficient. There was no sales pitch on bowling or any other product. Joe gave informative information on several of the products he uses and gave comparative and factual reasons why he chose them. It is part of the course and I am thankful for his input. It will probably save me a lot of trial and error and money.



Joe covered the legal aspects thoroughly. As far as where one can carry and where not Joe covered the basic law thoroughly. One should not expect anyone to be a walking library on the law. The individual is responsible to research specific locations.



I highly recommend Joes Plane Cents course and feel it was well worth my extra drive time and gas money.

I and four of my friends took Joes course recently based on couple of references from acquaintances. We all came out with much more than we expected. It was an Enjoyable and informative class in a very comfortable environment.



Joe did mention bowling; He did this in order to illustrate a great analogy of how bowling relates to marksmanship. It was an important analogy as he needed to stress how to practice and how important it is to be proficient. There was no sales pitch on bowling or any other product. Joe gave informative information on several of the products he uses and gave comparative and factual reasons why he chose them. It is part of the course and I am thankful for his input. It will probably save me a lot of trial and error and money.



Joe covered the legal aspects thoroughly. As far as where one can carry and where not Joe covered the basic law thoroughly. One should not expect anyone to be a walking library on the law. The individual is responsible to research specific locations.



I highly recommend Joes Plane Cents course and feel it was well worth my extra drive time and gas money.

I am a Satisfied Customer of Joe Penaz's Plane Cents Self Defense - Permit to Carry course. I found the course the class as enjoyable as it was informative.



I was quite suprised to here about this thread. But then I really should'nt be; those that do not beleave in our Second Amendment rights; or would like to twist them, will stop at nothing to achive their goals.



If Joe Reads this I would like to thank him for a excelent class. I went to his class on a recomendation. I did not compaire prices.

I am a Satisfied Customer of Joe Penaz's Plane Cents Self Defense - Permit to Carry course. I found the course the class as enjoyable as it was informative.



I was quite suprised to here about this thread. But then I really should'nt be; those that do not beleave in our Second Amendment rights; or would like to twist them, will stop at nothing to achive their goals.



If Joe Reads this I would like to thank him for a excelent class. I went to his class on a recomendation. I did not compaire prices.

I am a Satisfied Customer of Joe Penaz's Plane Cents Self Defense - Permit to Carry course. I found the course the class as enjoyable as it was informative.



I was quite suprised to here about this thread. But then I really should'nt be; those that do not beleave in our Second Amendment rights; or would like to twist them, will stop at nothing to achive their goals.



If Joe Reads this I would like to thank him for a excelent class. I went to his class on a recomendation. I did not compaire prices.

I am a Satisfied Customer of Joe Penaz's Plane Cents Self Defense - Permit to Carry course. I found the course the class as enjoyable as it was informative.



I was quite suprised to here about this thread. But then I really should'nt be; those that do not beleave in our Second Amendment rights; or would like to twist them, will stop at nothing to achive their goals.



If Joe Reads this I would like to thank him for a excelent class. I went to his class on a recomendation. I did not compaire prices.

We recently took the same class. Prior to attending, we read the posting on ripoffreport and were a little concerned about the quality. This class was at better level of quality than another class for twice the money in previous years with another instructor. We normally do not file feedback, but the article did not resemble at all what the "observer" detailed.

I was in Joes class two days ago and agree with everyone else that he is a solid instructor. He explained everything in great detail and made sure we all understood what he was talking about before moving on. The only thing he did try to offer us was a certain model of gun holster with no pressure to buy, he was simply doing it because they were hard to get elsewhere.



Joe has been teaching this course for a long time and has taught thousands of people and is respected by the whole gammet of law enforcement personnel, including the numberous ones who sit through his course. I am not sure where the "active observer" is coming from when he said he didnt know what Utah was about, either he is a complete *&*&, or he is hard of hearing, because you should already know the answer to that before even walking into the class.



Utah is another state in the United States of America, they have a course to carry concealed guns there too, Joe teaches that class along with the Minnesota class so that if you do send off to get the Utah permit, you can also carry your concealed weapon in all the states that recognize Utahs permit.



As far as Joe bragging about cheating on his wife, Joe has been married for 30 years and his wife is also an instructor and was also involved in the class from start to finish.



I believe that Active Observor is another conceal-carry instructor who is both overpriced and a very boring/stupid instructor where nobody is going to him anymore so he has to try to bring down a d**n good instructor just to make himself feel better. Every statement the old Observor made is complete crap and everybody that knows Joe or has taken his class knows that.

Hey all,



I too attended one of Joe's classes recently and have to say shame on the individual who started this thread. Joe Penaz is extremely informative and very experienced in all items relative to the class.



The class outline was easy to follow. All legal aspects where covered extensively. A good demonstration of various carry options regarding handgun selection and carry method i.e. holsters and such was also included.



I myself have both military and professional experience and as a new resident to MN am required to take a class as this in order to apply for a new carry permit. I can only assume that the original posting was by a competitor that simply can not offer the same quality as Joe at his unbeatable rates.



If you need any of the classes offered by Mr. Joe Penaz I would highly recommend checking him out- you will be glad you did!

I recently attended one of Joe's classes and found the experience to be completely different form the one highlighted in this complaint. On the contrary, I compliment Joe for conducting an informative, educational, entertaining and disciplined class. Joe kept on task with his presentation and kept it interesting by injecting case studies and even a bit of humor to hold our interest. This is a 6-hour educational seminar which demands an extremely important outcome - educated and informed citizens. It also demands a skillful and engaging teacher. Joe has both of these qualities.



I am perplexed by the report filed against Joe. Perhaps the claimant is a jealous competitor. Whatever the reason, I can state with certainty that my experience was nothing like his/hers. It seems that Joe's use of personal examples confused this individual. Joe did discuss his varied careers and interests - not to sell anything, but to create context for his presentation. The only thing offered for sale was an accessory that could benefit the user. This accessory was promoted with solid rationale.



Joe did NOT speak negatively about his wife. On the contrary, he spoke highly of her, mentioned that they have been married for 30 years and she even helped in the background in managing our group. Shame on the claimant for suggesting such a damaging and insulting act.



I am completely satisfied with the class that was offered and I submit that it was excellent value for the money. I highly recommend Joe's class and will be happy to speak with anyone who is considering hiring him for this important educational seminar.

I am writing this as a rebuttal to the unfit-for-printing report found here. I attended the February 9 Carry class with Joe Penaz. I had heard from a friend that Joe was a great instructor, and in turn I now look to recommend him to as many friends as I can. My father, mother, brother and I attended together and enjoyed a four-person discount, not the non-existent three-person group mentioned in the bogus "active observer" report (strike one). We all cherished our time with Joe and reflected upon it warmly on our way to and from the range in the car. The class was very enjoyable, due to Joe's excellent examples and infectious passion for firearms safety. He believes in hands-on education, and allows you to handle many fine examples in sidearms, a real plus.



When sitting in a class for hours as required, believe me, if a person can make it fun, that is superb! Joe did mention the political climate, and that is completely relevant. Getting a concealed carry permit is part of the solution to a society that wants to demonize and remove guns. Joe is doing his part to no less than preserving our entire system of freedom. Joe carefully explains the legality of different carry situations. "Active observer" could not figure out that the legality of postings are not always certain and open to court deliberation, so shame on him/her (strike two).



The instruction was thourough and gave many examples to illustrate every point. The shooting at the range was basic and covered the bases, yet it was extremely proffessional, stressing having your finger away from the trigger until firing and other necessary details.



In closing, I will state, as others have, that "Active oberver" was the REAL moron in writting that malicious report that he/she produced. As others pointed out, that person is a real fool and lost all credebility for not even figuring out the benefit of getting the many states covered in the Utah permit (strike three). I will refrain from foul language, unlike that scummy writer, and, referring to that "active observer, " as Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool." As for "Active Observer's" use of language, you are certainly are no lady or gentleman, and I certainly do not look to you for defending my second amendmend rights, you buffoon, (Utah) You scoundrel. I do look to someone, though, and that person is Joe Penaz.

I disagree with the person who submitted this. I, my wife, and son took a class from Joe on January 5, 2008. I am not sure what we expected when we enrolled, but we came away from the class very pleased. I commented to the State of Utah on their evaluation form that my only complaint was that the class was maybe too short. There was a lot of information that was presented in class.



On our way home and into the evening, we had discussions on what we had learned, and what Joe was able to do was to make us think. Yes, he did bring up many situations that he had gotten into and I, at least for myself, I felt that I had lead a very mundane life compared to Joe. But it was his personal experiences that made us think how we would act in different situations and that we needed to always be aware of what is going on around us. That was worth the price of admission even if a person decides they never want to carry.



Yes, we discussed the laws, but we also discussed public perception of us that will be carrying. The laws don't address that.



I am not sure why the person who wrote the complaint wrote it. I wonder if he was paying attention to what was being said and to what Joe was trying to do.



I can't speak for the other 8 people in the class, but I do know that my family was happy with the way Joe taught us. I did not hear any negative comments from anyone in our class, in fact one of the people talked to him about doing a private class for some of his associates. That person already had his Minnesota carry and was in class to get his Utah carry. (If the original writer would have been paying attention or read the handouts from Joe, he may know the difference between the Utah and the Minnesota permits)

I've taken Joe Penaz's Plane Cents Self Defense - Permit to Carry course twice. Let me explain. I first took this course in early 2007. Everything about the course was professional and informative. I delayed making the application for the Utah permit, its accepted in MN and 15 other states that the MN permit isn't, for 9 mos.

I thought I had a year. I contacted Joe for advise. Joe explained that Utah had shortened its requirement to 6 months from training date and couldn't issue a new certificate. It wouldn't be ethical. He would allow me to attend the Utah portion of his next class...at no charge. Doesn't sound like a guy with money as priority.



I'm a 57 year old purchasing agent, veteran of VN Army '68-69. Believe it or not I don't really care, my point is I've experienced enough to know when I'm dealing with a straight shooter or bs artist. Everything I expected from Joe's course I got, plus. I believe Joe presents his course as he says. As American's we have a right to defend ourself's and to refuse to be a victim. Along with that I got an appreciation for the seriousness of the obligation that comes with gun carry, as a last resort and the personal consequences that can come with using that right. If someone is or wants a Rambo I wouldn't suggest Joe's course, if someone wants a guy with knowledge, personal experience and ethics then I would.

I toook Joe's class for conceal carry and found the information presented to be insightful and interesting. The class covered everything it advertised and more. My intent was to be certified so as to be able to apply for a carry permit and that's exactly what the class did.

Joe answered all the questions asked and gave the correct advise in regards to legal issues. For someone not to get this says alot about their attention span or their lack of basic skills and they probaby should not be thinking of carry or even owning a firearm.

First of all I'm guessing by the slanderous nature of this so called "rip-off report" that the "active observer" who posted this garbage has serious mental issues or may be working for another Carry Permit instructor that needs more business. Either way when he brings a mans wife into the story you know he's talking B.S.



Apparently "active observer" went to a different class than I did. It's obvious why Utah was covered. Apparently observer doesn't get out much. We we're given copies of the actual gun laws and resources and links to check on current laws. It's pretty simple stuff.



I recommend Joe's permit to carry course to everyone I talk to about the subject.



Joe tried to sell him bowling balls and floor polish huh? And that garbage actually got posted?



There's a difference between a "letter to the editor" and slander. Too bad the rip-off report can't distinguish between the two.

I attended Joe's class on November 17th. This is an unsolicited comment about Joe's class. Joe is not aware that I am posting this comment. I am signing my name and number at the bottom, so please feel free to contact me with any questions.



I received my money's worth in this class. There were no innapropriate comments made in this class. Joe stayed right on track and covered everything that he said he would cover. His real life stories and examples were used to illustrate points about the law. The class was informal, but stayed "on point."



I don't know what this gentleman expected to receive. I attended another class several years ago (before the St paul judge threw out the first carry law), and never got around to applying for my license at that time. So I have attended two classes from two different teachers. Both had strong and weak points, but both did exactly what they said they would do... teach a class according to state law.



As to this gentleman's comment "I don't know what Utah has to do with it." Well, I guess this guy just wasn't listening. Most of these classes advertise a "two-in-one" class in case anyone wants to also apply for a non-resident license in Utah (which I did). It was clearly advertised this way when I signed up.



Joe did not try to sell us anything. As a matter of fact, I expected a bigger push about holsters (something he mentions on his website) but was actually a little disappointed that he didn't push us to "shop for holsters" with him. He was teaching a class... not selling stuff.



One more point. Joe's wife was present, in and out of the room, throughout the class, and they are obviously very close to each other. I am offended on their behalf that this slanderous comment about cheating on his wife was made by this supposed attender and allowed to be posted.



I did not know Joe before this class, and I doubt, due to distance, that I will ever spend any time becoming his close friend. I will however refer as many people to his class as possible.



CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

I attended Joe's class on November 17th. This is an unsolicited comment about Joe's class. Joe is not aware that I am posting this comment. I am signing my name and number at the bottom, so please feel free to contact me with any questions.



I received my money's worth in this class. There were no innapropriate comments made in this class. Joe stayed right on track and covered everything that he said he would cover. His real life stories and examples were used to illustrate points about the law. The class was informal, but stayed "on point."



I don't know what this gentleman expected to receive. I attended another class several years ago (before the St paul judge threw out the first carry law), and never got around to applying for my license at that time. So I have attended two classes from two different teachers. Both had strong and weak points, but both did exactly what they said they would do... teach a class according to state law.



As to this gentleman's comment "I don't know what Utah has to do with it." Well, I guess this guy just wasn't listening. Most of these classes advertise a "two-in-one" class in case anyone wants to also apply for a non-resident license in Utah (which I did). It was clearly advertised this way when I signed up.



Joe did not try to sell us anything. As a matter of fact, I expected a bigger push about holsters (something he mentions on his website) but was actually a little disappointed that he didn't push us to "shop for holsters" with him. He was teaching a class... not selling stuff.



One more point. Joe's wife was present, in and out of the room, throughout the class, and they are obviously very close to each other. I am offended on their behalf that this slanderous comment about cheating on his wife was made by this supposed attender and allowed to be posted.



I did not know Joe before this class, and I doubt, due to distance, that I will ever spend any time becoming his close friend. I will however refer as many people to his class as possible.



CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

I attended Joe's class on November 17th. This is an unsolicited comment about Joe's class. Joe is not aware that I am posting this comment. I am signing my name and number at the bottom, so please feel free to contact me with any questions.



I received my money's worth in this class. There were no innapropriate comments made in this class. Joe stayed right on track and covered everything that he said he would cover. His real life stories and examples were used to illustrate points about the law. The class was informal, but stayed "on point."



I don't know what this gentleman expected to receive. I attended another class several years ago (before the St paul judge threw out the first carry law), and never got around to applying for my license at that time. So I have attended two classes from two different teachers. Both had strong and weak points, but both did exactly what they said they would do... teach a class according to state law.



As to this gentleman's comment "I don't know what Utah has to do with it." Well, I guess this guy just wasn't listening. Most of these classes advertise a "two-in-one" class in case anyone wants to also apply for a non-resident license in Utah (which I did). It was clearly advertised this way when I signed up.



Joe did not try to sell us anything. As a matter of fact, I expected a bigger push about holsters (something he mentions on his website) but was actually a little disappointed that he didn't push us to "shop for holsters" with him. He was teaching a class... not selling stuff.



One more point. Joe's wife was present, in and out of the room, throughout the class, and they are obviously very close to each other. I am offended on their behalf that this slanderous comment about cheating on his wife was made by this supposed attender and allowed to be posted.



I did not know Joe before this class, and I doubt, due to distance, that I will ever spend any time becoming his close friend. I will however refer as many people to his class as possible.



CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

I attended Joe's class on November 17th. This is an unsolicited comment about Joe's class. Joe is not aware that I am posting this comment. I am signing my name and number at the bottom, so please feel free to contact me with any questions.



I received my money's worth in this class. There were no innapropriate comments made in this class. Joe stayed right on track and covered everything that he said he would cover. His real life stories and examples were used to illustrate points about the law. The class was informal, but stayed "on point."



I don't know what this gentleman expected to receive. I attended another class several years ago (before the St paul judge threw out the first carry law), and never got around to applying for my license at that time. So I have attended two classes from two different teachers. Both had strong and weak points, but both did exactly what they said they would do... teach a class according to state law.



As to this gentleman's comment "I don't know what Utah has to do with it." Well, I guess this guy just wasn't listening. Most of these classes advertise a "two-in-one" class in case anyone wants to also apply for a non-resident license in Utah (which I did). It was clearly advertised this way when I signed up.



Joe did not try to sell us anything. As a matter of fact, I expected a bigger push about holsters (something he mentions on his website) but was actually a little disappointed that he didn't push us to "shop for holsters" with him. He was teaching a class... not selling stuff.



One more point. Joe's wife was present, in and out of the room, throughout the class, and they are obviously very close to each other. I am offended on their behalf that this slanderous comment about cheating on his wife was made by this supposed attender and allowed to be posted.



I did not know Joe before this class, and I doubt, due to distance, that I will ever spend any time becoming his close friend. I will however refer as many people to his class as possible.



CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

First off, I would like apologize for whatever I did to set this person off. Since he did not have the courage of his convictions to sign the report, I have no way of verifying that he in fact is one of my students (something that should be taken into consideration when you read it). I would like to address some of the points this person raises:



I am not in this business to make a living (my wife and I are gainfully employed), I am in this business because I believe in our Second Amendment rights. The motivation for my pricing structure is to make it less painful to get a permit to carry in Minnesota, and to help persons who otherwise might not be able to afford the training in addition to the application fees.



I have never ducked the issue of where you can or cannot carry, I simply state the facts and relay some personal experiences. I am not a lawyer and I do not give legal advice. I do my best to explain the law and I provide each student a copy of the law and ask them to read it. Some students don't want me to tell them something other than what they want to hear. For that I am sorry, but I cannot change the law.



While I do have links relating to some of my hobbies and interests on my website, I have never tried to sell a bowling ball, ?FLOOR POLISHES? (I have no idea where that came from), nutritional supplements, or anything of the sort during my classes. I show a variety of firearms and accessories during my classes. As a service to my students, I do stock a couple of items that are not readily available for purchase in retail stores.



As for his claim that I brag about how many times I've cheated on my wife, I don't even know how to respond to that. My wife and I celebrated our 30th anniversary a few months ago. We have two terrific children, the oldest is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, the other will be starting Dental School in the spring. My wife is involved in the business and helps out with almost every class. If I was bragging about cheating on my wife within earshot of her, I would not still be married. Anyone who knows me knows how committed I am to my wife, my marriage, and my family.



If you thought for a moment that anything this guy wrote has any validity, think again. I encourage you to go to my website, call my references. Jeff at Cabin Fever has called me to tell me what good feedback he has gotten. Larry at the Gun Stop will also give you feedback from his customers.



To the person who wrote this commentary, the next time you decide to write slanderous trash about someone, at least be man enough to sign your name to it.



Joe Penaz